In the season finale, family is destiny, it seems. If your father is Ned Stark, you are honorable to the vanquished and respectful of their dead. If your father is Tywin Lannister — well, you become a cold-blooded killer.
Enjoy a discussion of “The Children” with three fans with very different perspectives: Laura Fletcher, a casual fan of the television and book series; Corrin Bennett-Kill, a hardcore fan of the book and TV series (she has read all the books four times!); and Cheryl Collins, a TV show watcher who has never read the book series.
Please join the discussion in comments!
Laura Fletcher
Obviously, “The Children” can be a direct reference to the new-to-viewers race we meet, but it’s also a signal of one of the big themes of this season (and entire series, really): the changes coming for the next generation.
Cheryl Collins
And fittingly, this episode fell on Father’s Day.
Let’s start at the beginning, with Jon Snow heading beyond the Wall, where he confronts Mance.
Corrin Bennet-Kill
I was thrilled to finally get a little Ciaran Hinds as Mance Rayder. As soon as he came on screen, I was filled with disappointment that this was the only time we saw Mance during the entire season. I think the show writers really blew a big opportunity for building more interest in this season by leaving him out so much.
Laura
Jon Snow really does a good job of finding warped father figures, doesn’t he? Mance is actually a pretty good one, but I’m not sure about Stannis. He almost viewed Jon as an equal, heeding his advice on WWNSD (“What Would Ned Stark Do?”).
When Jon and Mance were toasting their dead and Jon mentioned Grenn, I smiled darkly. A reminder that the Night’s Watch are really the unsung heroes of this show — culled from the prisons and poorhouses, and putting it all on the line for the realm. Varys would approve.
Cheryl
So there’s our first reference to a father of the evening. And I admit it, I was surprised by Stannis’s troops storming in.
I noted that Jon Snow did not kneel before Stannis, though he did call him “Your Grace.” His time beyond the Wall did seem to mark him.
Corrin
I thought that the scenes between Mance and Jon were wonderful. Jon Snow has perfected the beaten-down but loveable-dog look, and Mance, as much as he was taken in by Jon the first time, delivers this wonderful quality of shrewdness and honesty.
And yes, STANNIS! I knew it was coming and it was still thrilling!
Laura
The aerial shots of the two flanks of Stannis’s army, arrayed in very formal order, were awe-inspiring.
Cheryl
Remember when Jon first went into Mance’s tent and accidentally kneeled before Tormund, thinking he was the “king”? A lot has changed for Jon.
Corrin
Much like the wildlings, the Night’s Watch is beholden to no king. They stand apart in much the same ways. In fact, Jon Snow and Mance Rayder have more in common in their beliefs that either character has with Stannis.
Cheryl
Jon told Tormund that he had “no king,” and Tormund replied that Jon “will never be a kneeler” again — which strengthens the sense that Jon is his own man, has the power that comes from living through hell and back, and is a force to be reckoned with.
I noted a look of pain and betrayal when Mance first sees Jon — he’s peeved the kid got him, but respectful also.
Corrin
Well, Mance was a man of the Night’s Watch before he deserted. He know precisely what Jon vowed and what that can mean to a man. He also knows what it means to abandon those vows. Again: the showrunners blew a big opportunity with the Mance Rayder character.
Cheryl
Of course I am hoping that all these folks (Stannis’s army, wildings, Jon et al) team up, as I have no idea what happens — but that’s for next season. Maybe Mance will play a bigger role then. (Here’s hoping, because as you say Corrin, he is a great character.)
Also, I noted that when it came time to light the pyre, there as no sign of Thorne. It seems Jon is the de facto leader now.
And through the smoke, staring at Jon, we see Melisandre. Honing in on the smell of king’s blood like a dog.
Laura
Sniffle moment of the night Number 1: when Tormund tells Jon that Ygritte loved him, and he could tell because she only ever talked about killing him. Only GoT can choke me up by talking about murder!
Corrin
There was another moment with Stannis and Jon: when Jon told Stannis that if Stannis had seen the things that he had seen, he would burn all the dead. I don’t know if it was the weight of grief and loss, or just too much knowledge of what they’re up against, or perhaps relief that he is no longer alone. The look in Jon’s eyes was bleak.
As much as I dislike the casting of Melisandre, her character is one of the few who knows what’s what.
Cheryl
Yes, I saw the same thing in Jon. Like, “this is too hard to explain right now, just trust me, my father would say the same thing: burn them.”
Corrin
Who would be naturally opposed to nightmares of ice and darkness more than R’hollor, the god of fire?
Laura
That look from Melisandre at Jon through the pyre was very disturbing. She may be a weird casting choice in my opinion as well, but she has the creepy stare down pat.
Cheryl
That’s an interesting thought: that she is out of her “element,” so to speak (bada bing) in the land of ice, with lots of forces she does not understand.
Laura
We also can’t help but remember how Melisandre went a little burn-happy back on Dragonstone — at least this time the pyre was for already-dead men.
Cheryl
Did you shed a tear for Ygritte, and Jon’s lost love?
Laura
I kinda laughed inappropriately when Jon was walking away from Ygritte’s pyre and dropped the torch melodramatically. He’s so emo! Did he think he was pulling a mic drop? Oh, Kit Harrington, you are pretty perfectly cast.
Cheryl
What I like about Jon Snow the character is that he is a guy of few words who is not especially articulate, and the writers are not afraid to write him that way. He is no Tyrion.
Corrin
Jon is so much more his father’s son than any of the other Stark children.
Cheryl
So, back in King’s Landing, Cersei finally says no to her father and refuses to marry Loras, and she forces Tywin to confront the truth.
Laura
All in all, a crappy Father’s Day for Tywin.
Corrin
A great moment between Charles Dance and Lena Headey as she shows him the depth of her rebellion. When Tywin says “I don’t believe you,” it was so much like Janos Slynt from the Night’s Watch saying that giants don’t exist while they battered at the gates, as to be eerie. It was a man trying to convince himself that the evidence of his eyes is false.
And then, Cersei and Jaime making up … and out. I was sort of meh about that scene.
Laura
Cersei seems to be playing her final hand, realizing that even though Jaime is pretty horrible (see: earlier rape scene!), he’s her last ally. Which: ew and sad.
Cheryl
It felt to me like cold calculation, like she was trying to win over Jamie. But it could have been the sheer exhilaration of finally embracing the relationship that she had to hide from her father and the world. Letting go of the shame.
Laura
Yeah, I wasn’t sure how to read Cersei’s behavior. I do think she would do anything to hold on to Tommen, aaaaand not sure how telling everyone he’s her incestuous child would help with that. I guess he could lose the throne, but she could run off with Jaime and Tommen? Her long-term plans are hazy at best. I think she’s cracking a bit.
Corrin
Cheryl, I think you hit the nail on the head. How we catch Jaime looking at his entry in the book of the Kingsguard at the beginning of the scene as if to say, what will my legacy be, and then willingly pushing the book and fear of that legacy away in favor of a moment with Cersei.
Cheryl
I just can’t quit you.
Cheryl
Laura, not wishing to wade into the “rape scene” issue again, but remember in GoT-world, Jaime did not rape Cersei. That was how it was presented to us as viewers, but in their world, that was not what they were going for. So not clear in this context he is “pretty horrible” at all.
Laura
It’s so true! The disconnect between what some viewers, like me, feel and what the story wants us to feel is a bit weird. But also, Cersei is rapidly losing her marbles.
Cheryl
So, Jaime frees Tyrion. Which, after watching the whole sequence, seems like it was perhaps set up by Tywin, because no way was he was going to kill off his son.
Corrin
Although my husband mentioned something that I think is worth noting here: the missing conversation between Jaime and Tyrion about Tysha.
Laura
Tysha was Tyrion’s first wife, who was a setup by Tywin and Jaime.
Cheryl
The “whore.”
Corrin
When Tyrion was a very young man he met a young woman, fell in love, and married her. She was a commoner and Tywin didn’t approve. Tywin accused her of being a whore and forced Tyrion to give her to his father’s garrison to use.
However, in the book scene where Jaime releases Tyrion, he tells Tyrion that Tysha was never a whore. Instead, Tywin had made Jaime lie to Tyrion to force him to end the marriage. Tysha was for real, and Tyrion, by his father’s and brother’s manipulation, had her raped and discarded. So that is what is in Tyrion’s mind when he comes upon Shae in Tywin’s bed. Kinda explains his intense reaction better, no?
Laura
This was such a key reason for Tyrion’s rage in the book, and I’m not sure it came across in the show. Shae’s murder seemed ruthless and out of character. And it’s not like Tysha wasn’t mentioned previously in the show! Weird decision, GoT.
Cheryl
And also, as retold in the show, Tysha was engineered to humiliate Tyrion, as if to say, “Do you think any woman would willingly love you unless she was paid?”
When Tyrion was pointing the crossbow at Tywin, the word “whore” was his button, and I immediately thought of the story of his first wife.
Laura
I suppose we could tell it was being referenced obliquely in that way, yes.
Also, who else thinks Tywin was full of shit (pun intended) when he said he wasn’t going to let Tyrion be executed? He was trying to save his own ass (also intended).
Corrin
me
Cheryl
Yes, to me the non-book-reader, the murder of Shae seemed extreme and out of character, Laura, I agree. Did you notice that she was wearing a lot of gold? Like Bronn, she went to the highest bidder.
Laura
Yes, those gold necklaces were another central part of the book scene. When she muttered “my lion” presumably thinking Tywin was coming in, my heart broke all over again.
Corrin
Yep, and he killed her with that Lannister gold. It was the last tie he had to his family being brutally cut. And dammit, Tywin deserved the indignity of dying on the crapper.
Another thought about the dropped Tysha reveal by Jaime. Perhaps that is the reason the writers included Shae during Tyrion’s trial. They knew they were going to eliminate that moment and needed to up the ante on Tyrion’s feelings of betrayal. Because his reaction, to kill Shae, does seem waaaay out of character.
Laura
I agree that’s probably why Shae’s betrayal was played up at the trial. Still, I recall we all thought that Shae was partially motivated by survival and desperation. I’m not sure the show convinced me that Tyrion would have it in him to murder her, even after the additional reveal that she was sleeping with Tywin and taking his gold.
Cheryl
I still don’t think Tywin would have killed Tyrion. I think he would send him off as planned. He started a war to get him back, a few seasons back. I thought Varys’s plan was all plotted out by Tywin, and once Varys heard the bells indicating that Tywin was dead (I am assuming?), then he was like “get me out of here.”
Laura
It did seem that those bells freaked Varys right out. He wasn’t planning on fleeing, but somehow the tolling let him know Tyrion had killed someone and it was time to go.
Corrin
In our house, we were torn between whether or not Varys was fleeing because of Tywin’s death or if he realized what Tyrion had done in that moment and wanted to make sure his friend was truly safe.
Laura
Varys’s inscrutability is one of the best things about him!
Cheryl
It seems Varys would not leave without his money, etc.
Corrin
And he is too invested in “the realm” I think to flee.
Cheryl
I think he knew Tywin was dead when he said “What did you do?” to Tyrion and then locked the door of the privy behind them.
Also, Tyrion shoots Tywin in the heart (it looks like to me) and kills him, which is exactly what Arya does not do for the Hound. And perhaps that’s why we spent a bit of time with that dying farmer on the road a few episodes back: to explain that the Hound shows Arya how to quickly kill someone, which she then she refuses to do to put him out of his misery.
Laura
I also noticed that the Hound told Arya he would die unless there was a maester hiding behind a rock, when just a few scenes earlier we saw Qyburn with the Hound’s evil brother the Mountain Who Rides, swearing to Cersei he could save him, though he’d be changed. Eerie.
Cheryl
It was hard not to think “Frankenstein.”
Now all hell will break out in King’s Landing now that Tommen is king, Tywin is dead, and Stannis’s army is at the Wall.
Laura
Who will be Tommen’s Hand?
Corrin
Whomever Cersei picks. It’s just her and Jaime left now to guide Tommen.
Laura
Cersei, back in the driver’s seat!
Corrin
Terrifying.
Cheryl
Yes, but great for the show! But RIP Charles Dance. So that’s another daddy down. Done in by his children, no less (there’s the episode title again).
What’s your take on why Arya leaves the Hound, without killing him?
Corrin
I’m not certain why Arya leaves the Hound. Revenge or mercy. I would err toward revenge, making him die a slow and painful death, just because she has kept him on her hit list. I almost think if the Hound hadn’t been such a prick about it, mentioning the butcher boy and how he should have raped Sansa before he left, that she might have had mercy and killed him outright.
Laura
The Hound thought he was being clever there, enraging her so she’d kill him. Boy, he miscalculated that one.
Cheryl
It’s kind of like Varys’s choice to get on the boat with Tyrion: hard to read. Just like Tyrion’s decision to kill Shae — something that could go either way in the moment and extremely ambiguous. It’s left for us to read into.
Laura
That leaves us with what Arya thought of Brienne, especially after Brienne’s attempt to tomboy-bond with her.
Cheryl
It felt like a missed opportunity, but it’s understandable that Arya trusts no one at this point.
Laura
And to be fair, the Hound made good points about recognizing Lannister gold on Brienne’s sword. She tried to talk her way around it, but a sword from Jaime doesn’t exactly invite trust from Arya. Nor does Brienne’s story about Catelyn sound particularly convincing, especially in that light.
Corrin
The encounter between Arya, Brienne, and the Hound is entirely an adaptation choice, and a good one, I think. It reveals Brienne’s essential failings: she’s pretty guileless and inclined to lead with her heart. Thankfully she has the brawn to protect herself, but as she described to Arya, she never had the sense not to fight. So, instead of trying to wheedle her way in with Arya, the truth bites her in the ass.
Laura
Yes! Brienne’s story is so roundabout.
Corrin
Also, that fight scene between Brienne and the Hound was wicked awesome. She kicked his ever lovin’ ass! One of the best action moments of the season.
Laura
That fight! So visceral. Back to the lessons we’ve heard again and again about fighting to win versus fighting “with honor.”
Corrin
The people I was watching it with all considered those few minutes better than the entirety of the previous episode.
Cheryl
What was interesting to me was that the Hound just kept it going, even though Brienne wanted it to end. Was he trying to protect Arya or just keep the fight going?
Corrin
I think the Hound has been trying to die for a very long time.
Laura
Right. And his only pleasure, as he’s said again and again, is wine and killing people. And he’s outta wine! “Fuck water.”
Cheryl
Also, at a certain point it was no longer swords they were fighting with, but rocks and then fists — raw, primal, furious. Nothing elegant here.
Laura
And Brienne’s screams near the end of the fight! They were haunting and primal indeed.
Cheryl
So Arya sets sail on a ship for Braavos — at least she’s away from Westeros.
So then, on to Bran.
Laura
BRAN! I’m blown away by what happened — not that it’s new, but that it came so soon.
Corrin
Aside from Jojen Reed dying, the scene with Bran and finding the three-eyed crow played out almost exactly as written by GRRM. Their journey would have seemed even more interminable than it already did if they had kept the chronology of the books.
I thought it played well, although my husband thought the wights were a little cheesy. And I was glad they kept the “You’ll never walk again, but you’ll fly” line.
My husband’s theory is that “you’ll fly” means that Brandon Stark will become one of the riders of Dany’s dragons; that because he is a warg, he will be able to control them. This statement happens almost back-to-back with Dany locking the dragons up, making it even more plausible. (This is all speculation, by the way.)
Laura
Whoa! I really like that theory of Bran as dragon-warg.
Cheryl
You both have mentioned in the past that Bran’s character in the books has a journey whose point up to this point seems unclear. But speeding up the process, maybe they are trying to keep his character relevant.
Corrin
There is a character called Coldhands who has been eliminated from the show version. He’s neither truly dead nor truly alive, but he rides a dead elk. He is the one who kills the deserters at Craster’s Keep. And he helps Bran and company find the three-eyed crow. AND he fight the wights at the tree. And Jojen doesn’t die in the books.
Cheryl
And the meaning of “you’ll fly” is not yet explicated in the books?
Corrin
Correct.
Cheryl
Next up is Dany, the slavedom-vanquishing queen who decides to chain up her dragons. Ruling means making the hard choices, girl. You can’t have everything.
Laura
Her dragons are her children.
Corrin
The presentation of the little girl’s bones was as heartbreaking as it should have been. It was the unfortunate last straw for Dany.
But remember, it is the two smaller dragons that have been chained. Drogon, the largest, is at large still.
Laura
And Drogon is the one who killed the child (the grieving father mentioned it was the black dragon).
Cheryl
These are details I as a TV watcher would not see. It has not been clear to me that they have different sizes or that one is black.
Corrin
But when the dragons realize they have been chained, their — wailing is all I can describe it as — was awful! I felt so much pity for them and for Dany. Ugh.
Cheryl
As for Bran and the dragons: remember his vision that ends with the shadow of the dragon flying over King’s Landing? This is what I wrote about that vision:
“There was a weird shot of what looked like a mask of a face encased in ice, and then the shadow of a dragon flying over King’s Landing, which the show then immediately cut to, to [Joffrey and Margaery’s] wedding. It was as though somehow Bran’s visions bound up the fate of the Targaryens and Joffrey’s wedding all in one karmic package. As if it was all one cycle that was being completed.”
It kind of strengthens your hubby’s idea, Corrin, that there’s a connection with him and the dragons, somehow.
Corrin
Well, that would certainly explain how Bran is so mysteriously vital. All in all I think it was the best episode of the season and probably the best finale of the series.
Cheryl
So much sadness in this episode. No exuberance anywhere. I do think it was a successful season ender in that it set things up well for next season (whenever that is).
But I will say it was great not to be confronted with a brothel scene or something similar. We got to some real emotions here, and that was so much more satisfying.
Corrin
I agree with you there, Cheryl.
Cheryl
Something I want to ask about (and I know I am jumping around): Tyrion asks his father why he sentenced him to die, even though he knew Tyrion was innocent. That really is not clear. Just to send him away and get him out of the picture? You and Corrin seem to think Tywin would have killed him (because he was a threat, perhaps?), but I tend to disagree. Anyway, what would his motives be?
Also, regarding Tywin and Shae: that was the first time we had any inkling that Tywin was interested in sex.
Laura
Hm, Cheryl, well I’d think it would be several things: Tywin felt that the kingdom needed justice for Joffrey’s death, and he doesn’t want to anger the Tyrells by tracing the murder back to its actual source (which would also implicate Littlefinger, whether Tywin knew that or not).
As to why Tyrion, he was a convenient scapegoat. Everyone already thought he was a monster, as he pointed out at his trial, and I think he was more useful to Tywin as a sacrifice than a son.
Cheryl
Also, Jaime had made a deal with Tywin that obviated the need to kill Tyrion, but Tyrion went around that deal.
Corrin
Tywin is all about utility and he finally had a purpose for what he saw as his most useless child. So, I agree with Laura.
Laura
Tywin is so much more likable, or at least believable, on the show than he came across on the page. Charles Dance acted the crap out of him, making it easy to forget the Tywin who will do anything to maintain the power of his family name.
Corrin
All of Tywin’s children are no more than pawns to him. He didn’t ever take any of them seriously as players in their own right. He didn’t really even believe Tyrion was a threat to him until the first crossbow bolt hit him in the chest.
But he raised them as Lannisters, and Lannisters they all proved themselves to be.
Did the finale satisfy? And do you wonder what happened to Rickon, too? Share your thoughts with us in comments … but please, no spoilers.
“Varys’s inscrutability is one of the best things about him!”
Also his inSCROTability. *ba-dum-tss*
The wights were very Harryhausenesque (there’s a Scrabble word for you), especially the one awkwardly stabbing Jojen. And then Bran showed as much common sense as all other children in GoT. “Yeah, let me crawl up this literal pile of skulls, they guy standing on top of them seems totes legit.” His lair looked just like the horror dungeon in True Detective. But Bran probably hasn’t seen that show.
I was so disappointed by The Hound and Brienne. I kept hoping that they would suddenly stop fighting and go “are you as turned on as I am”. And then marry and adopt Pod and Arya and live happily ever after. (I envision a Love And Marriage-style wacky sitcom; Pod trying to be a big brother to Arya and getting the shit kicked out of him on a daily basis, and Brienne trying to make a honest man out of The Hound.) But Valar Morghulis, I guess. I loved that they at least exchanged painful groin damage, in keeping with the dirty fighting theme. I just hope that Arya understands what her stupid water dancing would get her in a fight like that.
I don’t quite understand her motivation for not killing The Hound. He was on her list, after all. The only reason I can think of is that she took him off her list after all their merry adventures. He DID save her eleventy times, and taught her actual usable skills, unlike everyone else in the world. I would have preferred to see her kill him, either as a mercy killing out of respect or a vengeful killing out of hate. Just leaving him there felt a bit anti-climactic and out of character.
I just hope a wandering maester finds him and grafts his body to that of his brother, thereby creating THE HOUNDTAIN.
I’m getting some Iraq-vibes from Dany. The grateful brown people greeted her as a liberator, but now her drones are spewing Hellfire on innocent children and gradually turning the locals against her. Didn’t she hang her own “mission accomplished”-banner over the city in an earlier episode?
If there is anything GoT has taught me, it’s that teenagers make the shittiest rulers.
Dany is like the worst randroid libertarian ever, in that she has to experience everything personally before she understands the implications of it. Oh, some slave owners were actually not evil monsters? Ok, take down their defiled corpses. Huh, some freed slaves have no place in this lovely free-for-all libertopia? Ok, they are allowed to work. What, my hungry free-roaming fire-breathing dragons whom even I can’t control may hurt innocents? Etc etc. PLAN AHEAD, you stupid teenager. These are very foreseeable consequences of YOUR actions. Hodor would be a better ruler than you.
In the midst of giggling at your puns (Houndtain! Inscrotable!) — which are much appreciated, although you need to follow up with some toilet puns for Tywin because that’s too fun to pass up — I want to bring up the Arya thing again. I think it was an important moment for her, reflecting some indecision and also some mystery. She’s getting more complicated in her morality and her strategy here. It’s an important set-up for her finally striking out on her own, to an unknown-to-her land no less.
As for Dany, I don’t get the libertarian vibe so much as the bleeding-heart-white-savior one you mention. Now she’s seeing the consequence of making decisions *for* her subjects instead of involving them in the decision-making (or letting them lead, for goodness’ sake). Her self-important description of the poor houses for former slaves was very illuminating on how little her attitude has changed, despite all she’s seen. She’d best grow up faster. Nothing’s going to get simpler, for her in Meereen or for her plans for Westeros…we can all tell that shit ain’t slowing down.
Yes, it was certainly an important moment for Arya, I’m just angry with myself for not understanding the motivation behind it. That shot of her, silently watching The Hound, was beautiful. She suddenly looked so old. I saw it as Arya’s “becoming”, like when Sansa came down the stairs in her Evil Disney Queen dress.
Oh yeah, it’s not that Dany IS a libertarian, it’s just that she has the same amount of common sense and forethought as a college libertarian. You know, they always espouse the invisible hand of the market in lieu of regulations, because the simply don’t know understand that regulations exist because we’ve already seen what the market does when unfettered. It takes a river catching fire to make them understand that. Everyone else is like Ser Fedorah, standing in the corner going “we tried to tell you”. And Dany/Libertarians will begrudgingly concede THAT point, but there is totally no need for regulation of the financial markets etc.
I just wish Dany would stop drinking her own Khaleesi Kool-aid, and start thinking ahead. Although in defense of GRRM, it is quite likely that someone in her position would be insufferably smug after all those easy wins. Eye witness accounts from Nazi Germany unanimously say that Hitler was completely convinced of his own infallibility after his early victories. This led him to believe that he was an invincible master strategist who could easily take on Britain and the Soviet Union simultaneously. Not saying Dany is Hitler in any other way. Although another similarity is that her elite army is probably not well equipped for a winter war.
Tywin, for all his faults, was the consummate statesman. He wouldn’t let dragons burn children, unless there was something to be gained from said burning of children. Joffrey would have done it with glee and malice aforethought. Jon Snuh would have done it by mistake and then stood idly by, mouth agape, gazing at the charred remains.
Can’t think of a toilet-related pun, I have failed you m’lady! I shall report to the Wall first thing in the morrow as my penance.
I can just see the King’s Landing CSI showing up to the crime scene with horrible one-liners.
– So, where’s the killer?
– I guess he had to… BOLT! *puts on sunglasses* *guitar chord blares*
I think that Arya was denying the Hound the one thing he was desparate enough to beg for: his own death. I don’t think it was done out of mercy or a misbegotten sense of obligation to him for all his many lessons. It was done to make him suffer. And THAT is very much in Arya’s character. Her laughter at the death of her aunt and, therefore, the dashing of the Hounds hopes of reward was pretty revealing. Arya’s hate fire burns strong.