One of the most chilling scenes ever on Game of Thrones raises the question: how much will you sacrifice for power?
“It an unpleasant question: what great thing has ever been accomplished without killing and cruelty?” a character says, soon before he is lying in a pool of his own blood, by forces he himself unleashed.
Take a deep breath and join us for a discussion of “The Dance of Dragons” with three fans with different perspectives: Laura Fletcher, a casual fan of the television and book series; Corrin Bennett-Kill, a dedicated fan of the book and TV series (she has read all the books four times!); and Cheryl Collins, who does not read.
Please join the discussion in comments!
Cheryl Collins
I have been focusing on puppies and kittens all day to wipe away the sounds of Shireen’s screams. This episode was for me the most extraordinary, intense, brutal — and in the end, effective — episode of GoT ever.
We start with Stannis’s snowy encampment shot in cold blues, then threaded through with fire.
Laura Fletcher
Stannis was right to wonder why no guard saw Ramsay’s men. Weird.
I had thought Ramsay wouldn’t do anything, after Roose’s caution. I wonder if he went rogue or daddy knew what he was up to? Not that Roose would disapprove but he might not think it would work, but boy did it — he destroyed Stannis’s army’s food and killed so many horses.
Corrin Fletcher-Kill
Roose probably thought that he had a spare son cooking in the oven so why not let the older go try to prove himself? Worse case he’s down a son. Best case his enemy is weakened. He’s not an especially sentimental fellow. Hence marrying Fat Walda.
Cheryl
Those screaming horses running aflame haunted me. And Stannis had a choice to make.
Laura
Then back to Jon and Castle Black.
Corrin
I don’t know what to make of Alliser Thorne. “You have a good heart and you’ll get us all killed.” I honestly didn’t think they’d let the wildlings back in. Neither did Jon, it seems, given the look of intense relief on his face.
As for the state of Stannis’s army, anyone else thinking of Napoleon’s invasion of Russia? Or the German invasion of Russia during World War II? Or any invasion of Russia ever?
Cheryl
Stannis makes fast, hard decisions: butcher the horses for meat, find out why the guards failed, hang them. Boom. Next item on the agenda.
Laura
This was definitely an episode about leadership. Heavy handed, even.
Cheryl
However, Roose and Ramsay are in Stark territory, so I am surprised they were as successful as they were.
Corrin
But they’re still “of the North.” They know what winter really means, and that they don’t have to directly confront their enemies. Let the weather take care of the bulk of the work. All it needs is a push.
Laura
I’m back to not trusting Thorne. He and Daario should form a club.
Cheryl
Aliser says “you have a good heart that will get us all killed” (to paraphrase). What to make of that?
Corrin
It may just be that Thorne is more pragmatic than spiteful, unlike what we previously thought.
Laura
Maybe Thorne was trying to threaten Jon, but the line seemed much deeper than that.
Cheryl
“How useful is compassion for a leader? Or is it a hindrance?” That seemed to be the setup for the theme of the episode.
Is it better to be compassionate (as Jon was, or as Alliser saw Jon’s decision to bring the wildings) or coldly calculating?
But, Aliser does not know the story yet: they NEED the wildings to survive, to fight with them anyway.
Corrin
I’m concerned as to what is on little Olly’s mind. I don’t like what I think I see in those eyes.
Laura
Olly is PO’d. And Tormund is still around so that’s good. He needs Jon and vice versa.
Cheryl
I am thinking that next week Jon will end up sending an arrow through Olly’s heart.
Laura
Another dead kid? Could be.
Corrin
And did anyone else see Sam duck his head, like he was trying to make himself disappear when Thorne walked by?
Laura
Brings to mind what role Thorne had in (tacitly) allowing men to attack Gilly. Or am I delving too deep?
Cheryl
Hard to know. But we went from Thorne’s comment on Jon’s good heart to a shot of the hearts (of Stannis) lined up against the Bolton pieces, and Stannis sending Davos away.
Corrin
As soon as he sent Davos away, I knew that they were going to try something with Shireen. And Davos knows it too, even if he doesn’t want to admit it.
Stannis doesn’t make the same mistake twice. He will not repeat his mistake at the Blackwater, of leaving Melisandre behind or not following her advice.
Cheryl
Ladies, I now know from watching the showrunners’ recap that this was all new material. So were you as shocked as I was?
Corrin
So when they tied Shireen to the post I half thought she might survive because of the greyscale [more below]. And then the mounting horror as I realized nope. Nope. They’re burning a little girl alive to save an army. Jeebus.
Laura
Shocking. And sad. But consistent with Stannis’s character.
Something is resonant in the carefully carved war pieces representing Baratheon (the “special” sigil of Stannis’s branch of the family), the flayed men of the Boltons, and then the toy stag that Davos gives to Shireen. All are intricately carved. And wow, that stag from Davos is pre-Melisandre. No flaming heart.
Corrin
Stannis took the fiery heart as his sigil instead of the Baratheon stag.
Laura
And the sweet, kind, intelligent, curious, generous Shireen. (shakes fist at Benioff and Weiss)
Stannis’s sigil is now the heart on fire with a stag inside it, unlike the Baratheon stag. It distances him from the Baratheons on the throne, but it also encompasses the stag. The stag is inside the heart, on fire. He’s sort of destroying his old house, but claiming it’s still in his heart. On the surface he’s promoting the Red God/Lord of Light, but I say it’s much more complicated.
Cheryl
So we have got to see the “kinder, gentler” Stannis the last few episodes, with those evil showrunners wanting us to warm up to him, and then BOOM.
Shireen was like Davos’s adopted daughter. Will her death be a bridge too far for him? Will he throw in his lot with the east? Will he return from Castle Black?
Corrin
Davos might try and kill Melisandre. And we know how that works out for people who make that attempt. I can’t imagine that Davos would take the corruption (as he sees it) of his king lightly.
Cheryl
This sacrifice of Shireen may work, and history likes nothing better than a winner.
I was thinking about the story of Abraham, who was ready to sacrifice his own son to follow god’s will — and he is considered the “father” of three great monotheisms!
Corrin
I made mention of this a few episodes back. The Lord of Light is one of the few deities in this universe that seem to have some actual tangible power. So I wouldn’t put it past the sacrifice working.
Cheryl
I forced myself to watch the showrunners post-show wrap-up. They did not come up with Shireen’s murder … GRRM did. It must be in the unpublished manuscript.
Laura
If Davos returns and Stannis is successful: yay, the Boltons suck! But boo, he killed his daughter! It’s hard to know who to root for. Maybe Briennes kills ’em all.
Cheryl
I was struck how the first scenes (with Stannis and Jon) were all in the north, filled with cold blues. And Stannis’s men in their armor, dusted with snow, features indistinct through the weather, looked just liked chess pieces.
What else to say about that truly horrible, horrible scene, with Shireen’s screams rousing even her nutsy mother? Stannis never budges.
Laura
You know it’s bad when you look like a bad parent compared to Selyse, the daughter-hating, baby-bottling mother.
Corrin
The various uniforms and insignia and physical distinctions of the different groups of humans in the north are getting blurry. They’re all beginning to look alike.
By the time Jon and the wildlings hit the wall it was hard to tell them apart. Same with Stannis’s men. The brotherhood of men, dying in the snow.
Laura
You two are bringing up a key feature: winter is coming, and it literally and figuratively blurs all houses into one. A leader is needed to unite them all in the fight with the White Walkers.
At least in Westeros. How it all relates to Essos is still unclear, since White Walkers can’t use boats, it seems.
Cheryl
Anything more to say on that terrible scene, which I thought would never end? I was blown away they took it as far as they did.
Corrin
Do you know what was almost worse than the burning of Shireen? The scene just prior when she is talking to her father about how she wants to help. “I am Princess Shireen of the House Baratheon and I am your daughter.” Echoing that statement that meant so much to her from her moment of connection with Stannis at the Wall. And the pained but determined look on Stannis’s face when he told her that yes, there was something she could do. How happy that made her. And then how proud she was to be helping as they marched her forward.
Laura
Dramatic irony out the wazoo.
Cheryl
“Forgive me,” he said. I knew it was coming then.
Another likeable large-hearted character bites the dust.
Corrin
It was that he got, almost, her permission.
Brutal. Just brutal.
Cheryl
You make assumptions your parents will protect you.
Corrin
Not so much in Westeros.
Cheryl
The message: Stannis is rigid, he does not change his mind, he makes hard decisions, etc.
On to Arya? Who seems now to have eyebrows of almost Frieda Kahlo-like proportions in her new disguise.
Corrin
I could have done without Arya this week.
Laura
It seems Arya’s story was important, but I just don’t care much. Sad to say because she’s such a great character.
Corrin
It was expected and kind of boring. And here’s Arya with her oyster cart. And there she is with her oyster cart again. And now an oyster tray. Looking furtive. Shifty eyed. It was just kind of meh. I was all, “Kill him already!” By that point in the episode I was really concerned that this was going to be a return to the previous meh episodes of the season.
Cheryl
So you did not find her straying from her mission as a Faceless Man apprentice — which she has been clamoring for forever — because of the sudden appearance of Trant of her kill list — kind of interesting? I worried somehow he would try to “take” her in his search for a young piece of ass.
Laura
The tension there is between whether she stays on the Faceless Man path and goes after the boat insurer, or goes back to Arya-ing and revenge.
Cheryl
And how to hate that guy more? We knew he was a sadistic asshole, and now we find he is a pedophile.
I felt a lot of tension in the brothel, as she watched him, and as he tells the madam “find me another tomorrow,” we guess it will be her.
Corrin
Not especially compelling, no. It was a known. As soon as Mace Tyrell got sent to Braavos we knew there was going to be a confrontation between Arya and Meryn Trant.
The Faceless Man seems to be able to read Arya’s lies so it isn’t like he doesn’t know that she went off script that day.
Cheryl
I found those bits while she is behind that screened wall kind of upsetting, but he is a caricature, he’s such a jerk.
She lied to FM1, so how will she deviate further on her path?
Corrin
Or is FM1 (awesome abbreviation, btw) letting her hang herself on her own rope? Or sanctioning what she’s doing given, well, what they do there? Or letting her come to a decision herself about what her path will be?
Laura
I still sort of suspect that the Faceless Men in general have some kind of psychic powers. Like he was setting her up to confront Meryn, somehow.
Corrin
Without some clue as to where Arya is going, what her role in the larger picture will be, I’m finding it hard to hang my hat on her activities this season.
Laura
We just want her to be a badass assassin, and we are all okay with her killing off her list o’ jackasses. I kind of DON’T want FM1 and his merry band of bodywashers to win her over!
Cheryl
The House of Black and White scenes were both cold (shot in blues) and hot (with lots of fires burning inside), so it served as a bridge between the North and the South, and the dragon’s fire of the last scenes.
Corrin
Do you know what I forgot about completely from this episode? UGH. Dorne.
Laura
“Let’s quickly develop the two young characters and ship them off to King’s Landing!” eyeroll
Cheryl
I was glad to see Jaime wearing a different outfit, but it was not especially interesting. Those vipers are boring.
Corrin
So I have a theory about Dorne.
Laura
claps hands Yay theory! Please, make Dorne interesting.
Corrin
I think that Dorne is where Dany will land her invasion. I think she’ll go from South to North. Because there is no godforsaken reason for anything to be happening in Dorne, ever. EVER.
Because nothing happens in Dorne in the books, and Jaime doesn’t go to Dorne.
Dorne supporting Dany is the only plausible reason I can think to include Dorne at this point in the series. Otherwise it’s just so UGH.
Laura
I really really, really want more from some of the Dornish actors.
Corrin
Last week when Tyrion went through his list of houses that could possibly support Dany in her efforts for the Iron Throne, House Martell is conspicuously absent.
Laura
It was only briefly alluded to in that Dorne scene, but Prince Doran said that his son needs to be “prepared for leadership.” (I paraphrase.)
So does Prince Doran think his kid will be king? If so, how? In the books they say that in Dorne women can inherit the throne, so it’s because Myrcella is next in line, even BEFORE Tommen (she’s older).
Cheryl
To me it seems King’s Landing is the place for Dany to land, because it is a hot mess right now, with no authority.
Laura
Cheryl, right! Though we’ve already had a battle at Blackwater Bay, so the writer in me is like “been there.”
Corrin
Dorne has always been something of an independent kingdom.
Cheryl
At least Prince Bashir (or whatever his name is) seems in firm control in Dorne.
[Editor’s note: the actor who plays Prince Doran played Julian Bashir on “Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.”]
He is trying to be reasonable and compassionate, but with limits. He doesn’t kill Ellaria. He wants fairness, and justice of a sort.
Corrin
And that weird, shockingly abrupt about face that Ellaria Sand did? Suddenly cordial and chatty with Jaime? WHAT?
Cheryl
Seems that she is scheming.
Laura
Ellaria seemed to take the kissing-the-ring thing pretty seriously, but she still dumped out the wine instead of toasting Tommen. Her characterization is pretty thin. She tried to pal up with Jaime by saying “I totally get the incest thing, dude. I’m down.” But really?
Cheryl
BUT she understands Jaime’s love for Cersei, perhaps better than anyone. The heart wants what it wants.
Laura
She gets “love for love’s sake” but it’s a hard sell for me to believe that she thought Jaime would buy that line from her.
Cheryl
She has her own motivations, but she gets him.
Corrin
Then the imprisoned daughters. UUUGGGHHH. Just stop it already!
Laura
What a waste of what could’ve been fun characters.
Cheryl
They are like bratty sorority sisters. And Doran is trying to hold to his line in the sand: “We don’t kill little girls in Dorne.”
From Shireen’s screams we go to the gladiator-style killing arena and Daario’s jokes about killing.
Laura
And Mr. Master (aka Hizdahr) being a total jackass — though in fairness Daario was pushing his luck with him.
Cheryl
And when the scene opens, Hizdahr is not there. When he finally shows up, he says he was just making sure everything was set up properly.
So, was he in on the conspiracy? Or did reopening the fighting pits (against Dany’s better sense) engulf him in blood lust, by opening a door to the Old Regime?
Corrin
Again, I wasn’t expecting much out of this scene other than a lot of sad/angry/sorrowful eyes between Jorah and Dany.
I don’t know that Hizdahr had anything to do with what happened as, well, he took a knife to the belly, too. And the Sons of the Harpy seemed to go after the Masters close to them. Before heading to Dany.
Laura
I figured the first Son of the Harpy was going for Dany. Hizdahr did seem shocked to be attacked. I think he was in on it long ago, but not recently. So they killed him as a traitor.
Cheryl
Well, the first guy went after Dany. Right? Just to back up. There were some pretty fucking extraordinary shots — I felt like GoT must have contributed a significant amount to the GDP of Croatia with this scene. I know most is CGI, but still, wow. For a television show, this was huge.
Corrin
Then the very “Gladiator”-esque “we who are about to die, salute you!” That she had to actively consent to the bloodshed rather than passively sit there.
Cheryl
It was all so against her instincts.
Laura
That was incredible: the clap and the expectant silence before it.
Cheryl
I loved the parrying back and forth between Hizdahr and Tyrion, and Tyrion’s “my father would have liked you.” Again, the question is about what makes an effective ruler.
Corrin
And the banter between Daario and Hizdahr, with Daario showing his jealousy is the most obvious and pathetic way. Daario could be an emotional and physical support for Dany, but he’s no partner. Hizdahr seemed to give her stability, but no support.
Laura
I thought Daario was toast after that to be honest.
Cheryl
It seemed to me Daario was making a point that Hizdahr was reveling in the bloodlust but was weak and fearful and afraid of the dagger — and then he got it in the end.
Corrin
And man #3 on the dais, Tyrion, was more than a match for her intellect and guts, but he might as will be a eunuch at this point.
Cheryl
Varys-in-waiting.
Corrin
Right! So, three men who added together don’t give her the selfless devotion and love we see in Jorah’s eyes when he looks at her.
Laura
My Jorah fangirl heart was all aflutter.
Cheryl
The actor who plays Jorah said so much with those beseeching looks; so much was expressed in glances between the two. That was very powerful, I thought. I really thought they were gonna kill him off. GoT: always playing with our expectations.
Corrin
Yup! Then the melee! This music and that hissing murmuring singing were eerie!
Cheryl
While Shireen’s sacrifice by fire was one kind of sacrifice, the brutal blood sports certainly was another: a sacrifice to the gods for the greater good of society. A cathartic national sacrifice.
Corrin
Excellent point. In fact, much of this episode was predicated on sacrifice to the greater good, whether that good be personal or societal.
Laura
There we go: a subtlety underlying the surface theme of leadership.
Cheryl
We may loathe Stannis today, but Abraham did much the same, no? (Though he did not follow through.)
Laura
By the way, how telling that an episode about leadership and sacrifice involves zero scenes at King’s Landing.
Corrin
Dany and Stannis both clearly make sacrifices for what they perceive as the greater good (victory and peace). But Arya’s deviation from her training could be seen as a sacrifice to her own greater good for familial vengeance. Further, at the Wall we see the consequences of Jon’s sacrifice: his relationship with Olly, the respect of his men. Even in ugh, Dorne we see sacrifice of vengeance for her life and that of her daughters by Ellaria Sand.
Laura
And another consequence, possibly, was Sam, as he and Gilly were attacked while Jon was gone.
Corrin
And perhaps Doran parting with his son and heir to maintain the bargain struck between House Lannister and House Martell.
Cheryl
Doran also sacrifices his personal desire for vengeance — which he may have — for the greater good.
Is anyone reminded of Obama by Doran?
Laura
Go on …
Cheryl
Someone who it is easy to underestimate, does not need showy displays of machismo to exercise power, who tries to do what is he thinks is right at the expense of the easy, emotional response.
Anyway, back to the Coliseum.
Laura
I want to figure out why they focused on Dany and Missandei holding hands.
Corrin
I read it as a “We’re done for. Gonna touch someone I love” moment. An admission that this was the end.
Laura
Interesting since they haven’t talked about their friendship much (they do in books). I felt like it was a nod to book readers, in fact.
Cheryl
BUT we can also see it as the possible spread now of contagion to Missandei.
No one seems to have mentioned in all this hullabalooo with Shireen and the dragon that Jorah TOUCHED/HELD HANDS WITH Dany, and he has the plague.
Corrin
My husband shouted “Don’t touch him!” when she took his hand.
There was a theory circulating in our house about grey scale and how it may have given its sufferers resistance to fire. Kind of like Dany when the dragons were hatched.
We were wondering why Jorah has the greyscale and whether we find out he can’t be burned by dragon fire.
Laura
I hope but know I shouldn’t that that could mean Shireen is somehow okay.
I bet Dany gets greyscale and somehow your theory comes up, Corrin.
Cheryl
I want to touch on this: I noted a number of times this season where they seem to be blurring the lines between what is human and what is animal with the discussion of greyscale. This seems a way to say the line between human and dragon is not definite.
Laura
Greyscale = dragon-person. Hmm.
Cheryl
Jorah lightly takes Dany’s hand to step off the dais as if they were stepping out to dance a quadrille at a courtly function, then Dany and Missandei clasp hands as the end nears, then Dany reaches out to touch Drogon for a moment of bonding as men throw spears.
Earlier in the season someone (I think Gilly) says about those with greyscale that “they sounded like animals.”
Corrin
Re the CGI of Dany riding Drogon: my husband called it “Neverending Story” cheesy.
Laura
We said the exact same thing! I may have even said “Bastian” in that dramatic voice of the Childlike Empress.
Corrin
I loved Tyrion’s defense of Missandei.
Cheryl
Trying to do the right thing, like a few seasons back when he tried to save Sansa from being raped in a street melee.
Dany seemed to be in shock as she rode away. But the look on Tyrion’s face was priceless: “now I see what Jorah was talking about.”
Corrin
Given her encounters with her dragons this season, I can imagine she was pretty shocked.
All of a sudden she’s not just playing at being a Targaryen, she is truly one.
Wonder what’s going to happen to the other two dragons? They need two more dragon riders.
Cheryl
Yes, free the dragons. And notice: we cheered as Drogon bbq-ed the Sons of the Harpy, yet were repulsed as Shireen burned.
Corrin
#freethedragons
Squawks
Laura
- The various Baratheon sigils (on a spoiler-free site that’s about the TV show): http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/House_Baratheon
Cheryl
- Stannis never flinches from watching his daughter – whom he had summoned healers from the ends of the earth to save – go up in flames so that he could fulfill his destiny. Whatever you think of his choice, he does not shy from it.
- If Corrin is right about greyscale, and for the sake of argument Shireen survives … will she end up as the rider of one of those other dragons? She was clutching the Baratheon stag as she was consumed by flames …
- This whole season has seen Dany stuck – boxed in – in her high aerie. Now that has all changed.
- We mentioned that the men in the north as winter descends look very similar to chess pieces. Daario shouts in the arena later: “Protect your queen!” Coincidence?
Please join us in comments! But no spoilers, please.