Game of Thrones Discussion: S5, E6 and E7: “Guys, Where Are We?”

Has Game of Thrones left you feeling “Lost” of late? You are not alone.

Join us for a long discussion of the two most recent episodes — “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken” and “The Gift” — with three fans with different perspectives: Laura Fletcher, a casual fan of the television and book series; Corrin Bennett-Kill, a dedicated fan of the book and TV series (she has read all the books four times!); and Cheryl Collins, who does not read.

Fair Warning: As we discuss two episodes, this recap ranges very widely. Further, we have not been exactly thrilled with many of the showrunners’ and writers’ creative choices.

Laura and Cheryl had a conversation about That Scene last week: it’s at the bottom of this post.

Please join the discussion in comments!

Cheryl Collins
Where to start? The first bits of Episode 6 were given to Arya and her new role as corpse washer. She is finally allowed to see deep in the interior of the House of Black and White. It was interesting to see the softer, compassionate side of Arya as she gently handles the dead.

Corrin Bennet-Kill
Correct me if I’m wrong, Laura, but I don’t think we see that room in Book Five. That Arya ground was newly covered. I remember watching it and thinking, “ah HA! That’s how they can be faceless or change faces!” Part of their gift of mercy is utilizing the dead’s faces. And not in a put-on-a-mask sort of way, but something way more magicky.

Cheryl
It seems to me so much of that last episode was about shifting identities and lies, the lies we tell ourselves and others … which then played out for the rest of the episode.

In last week’s “previously on” material, the Faceless Guy says “We never stop playing.” They seem to be stressing that point. Everyone is lying, everyone is playing, all the world’s a stage, etc.

For example, Tyrion playing up Jorah’s skills to the slave traders, and of course Littlefinger’s many, many lies.

Laura Fletcher
How on earth are some characters going to reconcile all their various lies and identities? Is Arya going to erase herself? Who is Dany, and who does she want to be?

Cheryl
For all of these characters, it was a mixture of truth and lies, which Arya seemed to finally understand when she told the story of her “father” to the dying girl — and finally offered the water of release.

Last week, as Sansa readied herself for her wedding, she stared in the mirror, perhaps wondering, Who am I? What lies must I tell? What mask shall I wear? That whole episode seemed to be about those masks —

Laura
Littlefinger’s lies are fascinating. I honestly don’t know what his plans are, or if he knows exactly how he’s going to get to his endgame.

Corrin
It seemed, Laura, as if it wasn’t until Arya was completely honest with herself about who she still was that she made any progress in her “training.”

Laura
Right! Not until she gave not the right answer, but the honest one.

Cheryl
The Faceless Man really whipped her hard when she insisted that she hated the Hound.

Laura
Yes! Wow. That also served to remind us that while we assume the Hound died, we aren’t entirely sure.

Corrin
Yet another “truther watch”: is the Hound really dead?

Cheryl
Arya offered the dying girl a bowl of water, which mirrored oddly the bowl that Cersei offered Margaery in this most recent episode — which Margaery throws back at her.

Laura
One was a lie out of mercy, and one was out of hate and spite. Both quite connected to religion, too.

As an aside, I haaaated this week’s episode. That scene with Cersei and Margaery was one of the only highlights. That and Olenna versus Littlefinger. I don’t know if I was influenced by my disappointment at the end of last week’s episode (the Scene That Shall Not Be Named), but I felt like the character development and pacing this week was garbage.

Cheryl
I found the last episode herky-jerky, not well directed or written at all. Especially after the Episode 5, which rained menace and tension.

Corrin
Both last week and this week were tough for me to get on board with. I didn’t think they sucked but they felt very much like Book Five: vaguely disappointing and ill-conceived.

Laura
Glad it wasn’t just me! I thought the characters were either rushed or totally inconsistent. Maybe that’s the issue, Corrin.

Corrin
I think it may be. There was some interesting stuff that happened in Book Five, but many of those little Easter eggs are story lines that are conspicuously absent from the series.

Cheryl
The whole Dornish escapade seemed so badly handled. The show runners seem to be just rushing through it. Oh, we just landed, and now Jaime has found his daughter! Oh, here are the Viper’s daughters! Oh, here are the king’s men to stop it all! Bo-ring! Even the fight scene was poorly done.

Laura
“Ugh, Dorne” should be the title of this recap. That fight scene was so silly. Topped only by Ghost’s deus ex machina for poor Sam the Slayer against the Big Bad Night’s Watch Rapists.

Cheryl
After some excellent episodes that really seemed to build tension, these past two have been lacking for me in tension, dread, menace, and suspense.

Corrin
HERE’S THE PROBLEM: There is nothing about the series of books that gives even a HINT of where this story is going as a whole. Yeah, fighting frozen zombies in the North, but the path from this place to that place is so obscure that the storytelling is fraying under the effort to keep everything in place. Typically by this point in any series I have a sense of who will be doing what, of what the chessboard is being laid for. Here? Nada. Which is why Dorne feels so out of place.

Laura
Yes, and the show is attempting to just throw characters against characters until one sticks or something.

And Dorne is frankly bordering on racist, considering how two-dimensional those characters are. Especially as they’re consistently described by others in Westeros, not themselves, and prancing around like sexy violent beasties all the damn time.

Corrin
Which is why Arya, although compelling, seems sooooo disconnected to the rest of the story.

Cheryl
Arya’s story seemed quiet, centered, grounded, measured — purposeful. Everything else? Not so much. To your point Laura, one of the lines used in the recap at the top of the show is “the Dornish are crazy” (by Bronn).

Laura
WTF Arya? I mean, I guess Margaery’s Wizard of Oz daddy is going to Braavos, but a connected storyline that does not make.

Cheryl
And OH. MY. GOD. Gilly and Sam having sex! Did anyone else just say EWWWWWWWWWWWW?

Laura
I felt so bad for those two actors! Least sexy sex scene ever on HBO? Or ever on TV? “Oh, my.” REALLY? Extended fat joke against Sam or something? The mustache-twirling at Castle Black is absurd. It made Aemon’s death seem like a means to an end, and that character deserved better.

Cheryl
Least. Sexy. Scene. Ever.

After a season’s build up between Sam and Gilly, I wanted to feel that release of tension finally between those two. All I got was YUCK.

Corrin
ZOMG! The “prison seduction” with Bronn, with antidote to poison as the “orgasm”…

Laura
And she wanted him to say she was the most beautiful woman?

Cheryl
After baring her breasts. That was hideous. Talk about gratuitous.

Corrin
I think that a big chunk of the issues we are seeing are problems with the source material.

The other big chunk is that the handling of difficult subjects in this series is getting poorer as time goes on.

Cheryl
I think you are so right Corrin, they are just vamping, vamping, vamping.

Laura
Condensing some of the source material certainly isn’t doing it any favors. I felt like the pacing with Tyrion and Jorah’s storyline was waaaay outta wack. And Dany’s reaction when Jorah-in-disguise starts slaying men left and right? WHY was she happy? Why did that suddenly thrill her, when the previous deaths were disgusting? ARGH.

Cheryl
My thought on that Laura — and I guess I need to rewatch — is that he was not KILLING his opponents, only vanquishing them. But I felt no surge of emotion, no joy at his victory. It was so badly handled.

That whole sequence in the fighting pit felt jerry rigged to me, poorly directed and acted.

If we zoom out, we see that all the major characters are enslaved, oppressed, or otherwise not in command.

Laura
Daario tells Dany she’s the only person in Meereen who isn’t free, for example.

Cheryl
And Daario tells her to kill all the counselors, just as Jorah is set to appear.

Laura
Daario is acting suspiciously, I think. He wants to get hitched and wants her to murder all the masters.

Corrin
There was always that seed of doubt regarding Daario and his actual motives for being with Dany. Jorah’s suspicions were always played off as jealousy.

Laura
Right! That at least seemed like good plotting/timing: Daario’s escalation in weirdness with Jorah’s return.

Corrin
There is that in the character that is a little shady, and Dany has never wanted to hear about it.

Cheryl
What a contrast between that bed in Castle Black with Gilly and Sam, and Daario and Dany’s scene.

Laura
And to your point a few weeks ago, Corrin, Dany at least realizes that marriage is political for her.

Dany’s smiling, silly face with Daario was so strange. In her past few appearances, she’s seemingly reclaimed her Mother of Dragons mantle and gotten much more mature and savvy. Then, we see her as a silly besotted girl. I don’t buy it.

Corrin
AND WHAT WAS WITH THE SEATING ON THAT PLATFORM? Were they trying to make Dany and Hizdahr look all schlumpy?

Cheryl
It felt so low-budget.

Laura
I guess they hadn’t planned on having her attend, so they didn’t have a throne? So she sat in the cheap seats?

Let’s talk about what the hell is going on with Tyrion. If he saves himself by the skin of his teeth through clever last-minute ideas one more time…

Corrin
For such a cathartic moment, especially one that we see for the first time in all material, I had greater expectations for Dany and Tyrion’s meeting.

It was like, “Oh, right. Yeah. Aren’t we supposed to, like, know each other or something?”

Laura
RIGHT. And do we have any more idea about what Jorah is hoping to accomplish, other than getting Dany to let him back in to her inner circle? Tyrion as prisoner, as advisor, as court fool…?

Jaime killed Dany’s father, right? Still not a direct line to Tyrion, but that’s the best I can come up with for the emotion I was supposed to read on Dany’s face.

Corrin
I did really like that Jorah implored her with “Khaleesi” rather than “queen” or “Danyeras.” Reminding her of where she came from mayhap? And the Lannisters are the ones that had been sending assassins to kill Dany and paying Jorah to spy on her. I think THAT is what you are supposed to be seeing on Dany’s face.

Cheryl
They had Jorah straining at the window, fired by his view of her …

Laura
So many people at windows! It’s this season’s bath. [Editor’s note: we discussed in Season 3 that so much of the good action seemed to happen in and around baths.]

Cheryl
The other theme that came out in this episode is what parents will do for their children — what with Jaime, Cersei, Tommen, Myrcella, etc.

Cersei says to Tommen she will burn cities down to protect him (I’m paraphrasing). What we do for our kids – who then turn on us.

Cersei seems devastated that Tommen has slipped through her fingers and loves Margaery, just as Myrcella has slipped through Jaime’s fingers and loves someone else.

Laura
When Jaime was trying to get Myrcella to leave Dorne with him, it was heart wrenching. You could see in his eyes how badly he wanted to parent her, but of course that’s not his allowed public role. He can’t even be her dad one-on-one, since it’s a secret even among the Baratheon/Lannister kids.

Jorah also did wax poetic about Dany’s dragon children.

Jorah is tough, and he’s motivated, but really? Just hulk-smash every other fighter with ease? And why did the big brute go all deus-ex-machina (ANOTHER ONE) on Tyrion’s chain?

Corrin
I think they were trying for a “big reveal” but it was all tropey and obvious.

Cheryl
What about Stannis’s refusal to sacrifice Shireen?

Corrin
At the very least we see why she has played such a big role compared to her textual roll.

Laura
Melisandre seemed to be reaching. We know Shireen is smart and she doesn’t agree with the Lord of Light stuff (in particular the violent oppression of other beliefs).

Cheryl
So is that why Melisandre wants to get rid of her?

Laura
That’s my thought. And Stannis has said she’s a princess, after all, which might make her his heir.

Corrin
Do you know what would fit with how things have been going this season? Robert Baratheon’s bastard swinging in on a vine to save Shireen from being tied to a stake. Then sacrificing himself for her … you know, like people do.

Cheryl
OK, big breath: Sansa.

Corrin
Sooooooo disappointed in what they are doing with Sansa. The more I think about it the more annoyed I become.

Laura
So far I’m really not liking how the showrunners/writers are handling her going forward from the wedding night rape. I was afraid they’d muck it up, and they seem to be.

Cheryl
In the “previously seen” intro, they showed the clip of Ramsay saying to his father “I’ll never hurt her.”

Laura
WE GET IT. RAMSAY SUCKS. OMG SHOW.

Corrin
I know why they focused on Theon/Reek during the wedding night rape. I do. Setting up that internal conflict: will he help her and redeem himself or won’t he. Given how different the set up is from the book, finding the lever that will allow Reek to reclaim a bit of Theon is no small doing. And I don’t advocate for the casual abuse of extras or think that it’s only main characters whose abuse need concern us.

HOWEVER, the fact that most of the horrific Ramsay behavior happens off screen or to minor characters in the books puts the focus on Reek’s motivations. In the show, however, they are being cavalier with a main character. AND not just cavalier but placing the importance of a young girl’s rape on her wedding night on how it will affect another male character. What the ever loving fuck?

There were so many other ways to have done that. Then, of course we see that play out again in “The Gift,” where the importance of Sansa’s abuse is how it is affecting Theon/Reek.

We get a first-person narrative from Reek in the book describing what Ramsay has done to him and witnessing what Ramsay did to poor Jeyne Pool (the character that Sansa is replacing on the show). We never get first person from either Ramsay or Jeyne. So the focus of this part of the story is on Reek’s internal conflict.

Laura
This was my main issue, too. The focus on Theon/Reek in that scene was repeated this week, in the “previously on” segment. So, that’s clearly what the show wanted us to notice.

Corrin
As an exposition on what a fucker Ramsay is. No more need to know that Ramsay is one dude who needs a horse to kick him square in the head.

Cheryl
To play devil’s advocate: if they had replayed her rape in the “previously on” intro, the showrunners would get hit for it, I think.

Laura
I feel so betrayed by the show’s careful building up of Sansa’s importance, character growth, and self-sacrifice. Did they build her up just so we as viewers would be more invested in her virginity/rape? I really hope not. But it feels like it.

Cheryl
OK, I have to say it: for someone who has not read the books, her rape seems completely legitimate. He’s brutalizing her, and she will want revenge. Just like everyone else in this show. She is chattel to him.

Laura
But the raped-woman-as-avenging-heroine is such a trope. Sansa already had plenty of reasons to seek vengeance! Plenty of reasons to become strong, or desperate, or crafty!

Corrin
They sought to show that, but in the manner that they did, they completely used the Sansa character.

Cheryl
To me this points to the reality of so much of human history: women were property. How many were raped while performing their “wifely duties”? Will she get her comeuppance?

Laura
I am glad, on some level, that this scene wasn’t written off as “not rape” because they were married. That’s my tiny silver lining!

Corrin
I think the other piece for me is that I’m watching another show that has the female gaze for much of it and is dealing with similar subject matter as well, but without it reading so bloody exploitive.

Laura
So now we know that not only was Sansa raped once, she has been raped every night for some period of time. Holy moly.

Cheryl
Sansa has been used by everyone on this show — for me, this was not a surprise.

Laura
YES. Everything is so damned male gaze on GoT! Whenever it’s not, it’s shocking. Back to Bronn and the Sand Snakes: even though Tyene is the one in power in that scene, it’s all Bronn’s POV.

Cheryl
For the show, I think one question might be: what will Littlefinger do when he finds out about Sansa’s treatment?

Corrin
Cheryl, here is the difference. I’m not surprised by how characters use each other in the show. I was surprised how the WRITERS used the Sansa character’s victimization solely to bear a male gaze and to illuminate his conflict. That’s the ick factor. Does that make sense? It’s the choices of the real people rather than the fictional that bothers me.

Cheryl
For me, they had it viewed through Reek’s eyes so we did not have to. But I understand your point. And agreed, this show is ALL ABOUT the male gaze.

As I noted to Laura last week when we were discussing this: I find the gratuitous soft porn somehow much more disturbing! So throwaway, so cavalier. They are not smirking with it anymore, winking to get our attention — it’s clearly established that they feel they need to reach a certain audience with bare breast and brothel scenes. Somehow, I hate that much, much more — and that makes me like the show much, much less than what happened to Sansa, I admit.

Laura
I think the de-sexualization of Sansa’s rape was part of my problem with it, oddly. The lack of it on camera showed they knew it was a bridge too far to show the violence (setting aside the fact that the actress was barely 18 when this was filmed).

Corrin
I was kind of excited about this season because so many of the men were off the playing board. All we had left was the women. But now, all the women are imprisoned. Margaery and Cersei, literally. Dany, not free to make different choices. Sansa, locked in her bride chamber. Brienne in her window.

Cheryl
Dany is also “imprisoned”: we’ve only seen her high up in the pyramid or in that odd jail-like fighting pit.

Laura
And Arya is at best trapped, if not imprisoned. A full ocean away from any allies.

Cheryl
Now Shireen is at risk …

Laura
As for Littlefinger’s plot: Corrin and I are pretty clueless, at least as far as the books go, and I honestly can’t tell if he knew the kind of fate that Sansa was facing. I don’t know that he really cares, though. I was at first wondering if his endgame was going to be marrying Sansa and taking over the North (then the wooooorld, or whatever), but now I’m not sure.

Corrin
I’d like to mention two scenes that seem kind of like throwaways given how jam-packed this episode was. First, Jon Snow responding to Alliser Thorne’s comments about how ill-advised he thought Jon’s trip to Hardhome was. “I thank you as always for your honesty” (or something like that). It was such a perfect, diplomatic, but hey-remember-who’s-in-charge moment. Loved it.

The second was Stannis before the “hey, let’s burn your daughter alive” suggestion. His vision was so clear-eyed. You just saw him on the Iron Throne at that moment. It made their difficulty with the weather that much more desperate.

Laura
It was a Batman-like moment for Stannis: he’s not the hero we want, but he’s the hero we deserve, or something.

Laura
I also like that Stannis thought he could get a little recharge with some sexytimes, and Melisandre was like NOPE sorry.

Cheryl
Stannis seems a more appealing leader with each passing episode. I now assume we will get a big battle scene at the end of the season.

So much to cover … what have we missed?

Laura
That whole scene with the High Sparrow was catnip for book readers. How did it play to you Cheryl? My husband really saw it coming.

Cheryl
Oh yeah, that thing with Cersei felt very easy to anticipate. She was playing with fire, unleashing the Sparrows. Stupid Cersei, thinking she was above it all. But her dad is not around anymore to back her up.

What seems so odd about this story line is WHERE ARE THE KING’S GUARD?

Who IS in control in King’s Landing, by the way?

Laura
Silly little Tommen, I guess? Eek.

Corrin
That’s just it, Cheryl. Cersei is kind of stupid. Beautiful with low cunning.

Laura
She only thinks maybe one move ahead, which is like checkers in the chess game of this show.

Cheryl
That sums up Cersei beautifully.

Laura
And Jaime’s not much better, I want to point out. He’s no master planner.

Corrin
Jaime is slightly more intelligent. But Tyrion is the one who got Tywin’s brains.

Cheryl
What do you make of the most recent episode’s title: “The Gift”?

Laura
We got a couple literal gifts. Obviously Tyrion as Jorah’s gift to Dany. But I think Littlefinger also told Olenna he had a “gift” for her, presumably the Lancel zinger?

Corrin
Gilly’s gift to Sam.

Laura
Yeah. That. And Arya’s gift of mercy was last week, but it’s implied (the gift of death they give in the House of Black and White) with the room o’ faces, I think.

Cheryl
And last week’s title was “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken” — thoughts?

Corrin
Those are House Martell’s words, aren’t they?

Laura
Right. And of course we’re meant to see more than that, as we all know by now. I got stuck on Ramsay’s attack on Sansa — will she remain unbroken, unlike Reek?

Cheryl
What about the death of my favorite character, Aemon, and his admonition to Sam to go south? By speaking and thinking of Aegon in his last breaths, it seemed somehow to bring us full circle around to Dany — and Tyrion. Experts: explain!

Corrin
Everything I start to type is a spoiler.

Laura
Aemon seemed, like Stannis, to recognize that Sam has something important to contribute and must survive, to do his research or at least get others to continue his work.

Corrin
Let’s just say that Aemon’s death was inevitable, that he received honors he didn’t get in the books, and that there is much more to come for Sam and Gilly.

Cheryl
And his touching of baby Sam, and Gilly’s love for him, and Sam’s love for them both, and his wish to protect them — that was threaded into the theme of the show.

Corrin
It was a moment of sweetness and kindness in an otherwise pretty despicable landscape. Or maybe I’m just a softy for anything to do with babies.

Cheryl
Sam also reminds us that Aemon is “Blood of the Dragon.”

Laura
Aemon was the last family Dany has, right? Though she didn’t know he was alive. That seems to portend something, you know?

Cheryl
Olenna tells the High Sparrow she can smell a fraud from afar. Is the High Sparrow a fraud?

Corrin
The High Sparrow is a fanatic. Far more dangerous that a fraud. He doesn’t play the game.

Cheryl
So, if Tommen is not the rightful heir, that makes Stannis’s claim so much more valid. But the whole world is cracking up, as the Night’s Watch crumbles, White Walkers descend, and dragons fly.

Laura
Also, was this week the first time we got formal confirmation that Olenna was the one who offed Joffrey, with Littlefinger’s help?

Cheryl
Certainly the first conversation between Olenna and Littlefinger about it.

Laura
I still sort of hope that Dany has to face off against another woman for the Iron Throne. But now that I like Stannis I don’t know what to hope for.

Corrin
My husband thinks that Stannis will step aside when Dany shows up with the dragons.

Laura
Or, Melisandre will tell him to step aside.

Cheryl
He’ll be Ned-like and want to do the right thing.

Corrin
Stannis doesn’t want the Iron Throne because he wants the Iron Throne. He wants the Iron Throne because he is the lawful heir. It’s his by right not his desire. And Stannis will always do the right thing even if it’s cutting off the fingers of the man who just saved his life. Soooo.

Because Dany is the rightful heir to the Targaryen dynasty, it follows that he would step aside for her. It’s only a theory, although a good one!

Laura
Stannis’s brother beat the Targaryens, and he sees himself as the lawful heir after that, so it’s not like you can’t win the throne through strength. I don’t know if he’d step aside for Dany on principle, but like Jorah he might be impressed with her story and “powers.” That, plus Dany’s name would be enough, but not her name alone, I think.

That reminds me: remember when Melisandre met Arya and was all “ooh you’re important”? (I paraphrase of course.) What of THAT, I wonder!

Arya doesn’t seem like a contender for a ruler, but she’s certainly being built up to do SOMEthing.

Cheryl
So, just to wrap up. My understanding from what you ladies say that, we are in unchartered textual territory now … and that, you suspect, is why the show has felt so weak these past two episodes.

Corrin
Yes, I think that has something to do with how all over the place these episodes have been. Then again, this part of the season always feels a little hurdy-gurdy.

Laura
What gets me is the pacing, Cheryl. We have three more episodes, and I’m not entirely sure what is left to even DO this season, book-related or otherwise, other than that big battle you predicted. They pushed so many plots forward that lots of big reveals got buried on top of one another.

I guess we’ll see Jon going north? But who cares?

Cheryl
Yes, I feel no investment in much at this point.

OH GOD please wipe away the image of Sam and Gilly having sex from my mind. Please.

Laura
And which Gilly initiated right after being violently attacked, and Aemon died – REALLY? What got you in the mood?! WHAT WHAT WHAT. (I know the show’s answer to that, but I object to it.)

Cheryl
There was no tenderness, no emotion. Why weren’t there some real close-ups of those two, to show unspoken feelings? Especially from Gilly, who is not exactly articulate? There was no sexual tension in that scene. Ugh.

Laura
If Gilly gets her crank turned by being saved, why didn’t she screw Sam after he killed the goddamn ice zombie?

Cheryl
Now that the wall is crumbling … the norms are all falling away …

Corrin
There are so many bloody loose ends in this show that it feels a little like the polar bear on Lost. WHY THE HELL IS THERE A POLAR BEAR RUNNING THROUGH A TROPICAL FOREST?

Laura
I was just comparing it to Lost in my mind. I only partly blame the actor who played Eko for crossing over. (He’s the master who captures Jorah and Tyrion.)

Cheryl
“Guys, where are we”?

A scroll will arrive by raven that says “not Penny’s boat.”

Laura
The numbers show up carved into the Wall.

Laura
Finale of the show: Ned wakes up and it was just a DREAM and/or LIMBO.

Ghost = smoke monster. In the best way.

Corrin
We’ve gone off the rails.

Laura
We have, but for good reason. The last two episodes were equal parts silly and totally heavy.

Cheryl
A good way to end this absurdity.

Squawks

Cheryl

• I wondered if anyone else saw a parallel between Sansa and Margaery and Cersei –- all three are locked up. Plus, all three Lannister siblings are now imprisoned. Previous recaps have touched on the theme of imprisonment and constraint this season.
• When you have a character say “sorry sack of shit” (that from Sam’s tormentors), you know they have hit the bottom of the creativity well.
• In Episode 6, when Tyrion tells Jorah that he killed his father and that “he was fucking the woman I love,” Jorah gave a look of understanding and comaraderie – “been there, dude,” it seemed to say.
• With so much emphasis on children and protecting them in “The Gift” — and Cersei’s words to Tommen that she would “burn cities to the ground” to protect him — I am wondering if we are being set up in some way for Littlefinger’s possible retaliation once he finds out what Ramsay has been up to with Sansa, as she is his his ward, figuratively.

Laura

• I predict some more White Walker action this season. Perhaps even that creepy ice baby that Corrin worried about so much before!
• When Ramsay is talking to Sansa outside (before he shocks her with the flayed Northern woman), she sneakily grabs a scroll (it seems) off a nearby ledge. Is Brienne right outside the gates?
• Things that had better not be red herrings include: Bran and his creepy new tree friend, the ice baby, Varys …

Please join the discussion in comments! But please, no spoilers.

Discussion between Laura and Cheryl after Episode 6, “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken” — with That Scene

Laura
I just watched and I’m pretty angry. And maybe ready to give up. This is a similar perspective to what I’m wrestling with.

They dropped a million hints that it was going to happen but I still wasn’t prepared. Or maybe I was but still pissed.

Cheryl
The rape was off screen. The focus did not seem to me to be about Theon. I did not think it was exploitive. Just mho.

I disagree with the premise [in the article]. It’s quite obvious in the scene that it is rape, there is no other word. It is much different and much less ambiguous than what happened with Cersei and Jaime.

Laura
What gets me at this point is the accumulated violence in the show. This was the final straw.

I had sadly hoped that Ramsay would begin torturing Sansa but be interrupted somehow. Sigh. Those are low expectations! And they didn’t even pull back that much.

Cheryl
It’s interesting, but for me — and I think this will lower your estimation of me! – much, much more disturbing and loathsome is the gratuitous soft porn aspects — I am so, so over all that BS. I disagree with the author’s viewpoint, in that I do think her rape serves plot here. Sansa is having to go through with this — and accepting it — in her effort to get the family lands back.

As a woman, she does not have a lot of choices. Could that scene not be construed as a reflection on the power relationships of the day? Meaning, she is his property now, in effect, his toy to do with what he wishes.

But I have felt ready to “give up” any number of times by “yet another brothel scene.”

Laura
Just as we don’t need another brothel scene to advance the plot, I think the same can be said for rape. What did we learn new about Ramsay or Sansa or Reek? Why show this at all? Shock value. If anything, it focused more on Reek/Theon and that’s no way to build character — through another’s victimization.

Cheryl
I see what you are saying. But the fact that she allowed this — she is going along with it for the longer-term goal — is kind of interesting, and we don’t know how this will play out in plot (for example, it may spur Theon to act out).

What on this show does not happen for shock value? There are swords through eyes, ears, brains, Oberyn’s head exploded, Mormont’s skull was used as a cup, etc. All acts of human violence and depravity are on display (though no bestiality yet).

Laura
I hesitate to say she was really going along with this at all. When she agreed to go back to Winterfell, she knew only that Roose was there and he killed her family. She didn’t know about Ramsay. Once she learned it, she was outta luck. I dunno, this was a new low. Especially (I hate to say it) since Sansa is a main character that people sort of love to hate and had only recently begun cheering for (remember when everyone thought she was bratty?).

Cheryl
To clarify: I do not mean she acquiesced to be raped — I mean, she went along with the marriage knowing that this was a possibility (although Ramsay is of course is much worse than she could have expected). Just like Tyrion was far better.

I guess I think: is rape never to be used in a way that is meant to shock? Virginal Sansa is being defiled by Ramsay. To me, that could be a very interesting plot point. The key it seems to me is whether it is gratuitous or helps explain her later actions.

Laura
I knew what you meant. Not that she was “asking for it”!

Yeah, the show I think could have done something else to advance the relationship between Theon and Sansa or show how desperate and scared Sansa was really getting. It was a choice, especially as the books didn’t show it, and I think the choice is grotesque.

We learned literally nothing new about Ramsay. And even Sansa already knew what he was capable of after that dinner and then the bath too (more bath scenes!!)

Cheryl
She has been sexually brutalized now (having been spared thus far) — how will this change her?

Laura
The last season or two have developed Sansa into a more complex, independent, and interesting character. I feel darkly like the showrunners are tanking New Sansa with this rape scene, in that character growth will be tempered by “post-rape Sansa” and all decisions or changes she makes will be attributed to that.

That’s sad to me. It sort of erases much of her journey. Now all that people will point to — whether she’s brave or weak, good or evil — is this scene.

Cheryl
I understand your point. I kind of come down on this topic here:

Laura
Final thoughts: in part there are potential spoilers in some of my objections related to Theon/Reek. I’ll say that something similar happens in the book, and in a few episodes I can tell you if I’m as disappointed as I think I might be.

Cheryl
Yes, I sense part of your disgust (and others’) is about material that is not yet covered in the show.

Laura
Let me be clear: I do not judge not those (including me) who watch the show. I’m disappointed in the writers and creators. Hoping they do better going forward because I am invested in the story. But I also get the opinion of some, like the Mary Sue, who say no more shall we “promote” it by writing about it. They didn’t say they’d stop watching. And I won’t. But not sure how else I feel yet.