Game of Thrones Discussion, S6E3: Don’t Make Me a Promise You Can’t Keep

Making promises and breaking promises: there is often a high cost to both—for generations.

“Oathbreaker” kept the action moving forward—and backward—as it revealed more crucial backstory.

Promise that you will join us, three fans with different perspectives. Rosalyn Claret, who has read the books yet says she “forgets” how many times; Laura Fletcher, a casual fan of the television and book series; and Cheryl Collins, who does not read. Maester Corrin Bennet-Kill is on hiatus.

Please join the discussion in comments!

Cheryl
As usual, we start in the North.

Laura
And again, this episode is bookended with the Wall.

Rosalyn
What did you think of Jon’s first few moments rejoining the living?

Cheryl
Anti-climactic. No big surprises.

As you noted last week Rosalyn, Davos was really, really pushing for this resurrection. Then when he has a sit-down with the guy moments after he’s back, Davos has no advice to offer, no direction to steer him, no desires to press. “Go out and fail again” … but doing what?

Laura
I was glad Davos was the one to find him first. Melisandre was ready to put a flaming sword in his hand before he even got dressed.

Rosalyn
I noted how Jon’s thought process went: 1) “I was murdered!” to 2) “Olly!”

It was like his processing of that emotional blow was interrupted by … well … death. It’s just kicking in now.

Cheryl
Melisandre is agog and speaks once again of the Lord of Light — so it seems this has reconfirmed her faith.

Laura
Davos is an expert advisor. He honed his craft with Stannis, and I think learned to trust himself more — not just listen to the higher-ups.

I noticed Melisandre still gave all the credit to the Lord of Light. I don’t know if her crisis of faith was really that. In fact, I think she did believe (and still believes) strongly in R’hllor; she was doubting whether she was as important a vehicle as she’d thought. Now she thinks she might be.

Rosalyn
I also thought Melisandre saying “SOMEone has to be the prince that was promised” sounded pretty desperate.

Cheryl
“Oops, I just misread the tea leaves … the prince really must be … You” was very uninspiring.

Rosalyn
I started wondering what seemed so different about this resurrection to Melisandre (than Beric Dondarrion’s) that she immediately jumped to Jon fulfilling that role. Maybe just her being adrift after Stannis?

Cheryl
Or desperately trying to convince herself that she had it right all along.

Rosalyn
Another small moment from this scene up in the North: the show emphasizes yet again that doing what you think is right is not enough. Jon is humbled by this, as other characters either die (Ned Stark) or rebound. Jon gets to do both!

Cheryl
He found out the hard way — just like his dad. If that is his dad.

Rosalyn
Jon emerging out into the courtyard was somewhat reminiscent of Dany emerging from the flames of the pyre in Season 1. Their followers witnessed something miraculous and it inspires fear and loyalty that was probably unattainable before. Jon perhaps had to go through this trial to find true followers.

Laura
There are lots of Jon-Dany parallels in this episode.

Cheryl
Both Jon and Dany have gone through should-be-death experiences. There’s that pairing that Game of Thrones likes to do.

Both Dany and Jon have faced revolts from within—and failed to unite their people. They both have been struggling to do what seems obviously right: for Dany, free the slaves of Meeren and elsewhere, and for Jon, unite with the Wildlings to fight the coming invasion from north of Wall. Self evident to them, but they never solidified their base of support at a grassroots level.

Laura
The way this episode cut from Bran’s tower flashback (where we think we might see baby Jon with his real mother Lyanna, if the fan theories are true) to Dany seemed almost heavy-handed, in drawing parallels between their mysterious childhoods.

Rosalyn
Good point. Both were rescued as infants amidst war.

Cheryl
Jon is going his own way now, just as Dany went her own way and started with nothing.

Something I was struck by at the Wall was how there was no one left there that we know of besides Edd. Jon’s “base” is no longer there.

Rosalyn
That’s true, Cheryl. Not to keep on about this, but I’m sure that’s why the show has deployed Olly. Olly is serving to humanize Jon Snow, adding some emotional stakes to a pretty grim time for Jon. Olly is there to stand in for the human cost of wildling conflict in the North. We’ve spent a lot more time with named Wildling characters and feel more sympathy for them, so he’s intended as a counterbalance to that, a reminder of the high stakes and the people we root for.

Ygritte is dead, Sam is gone, Maester Aemon is dead, half of Jon’s original crew of recruits is dead, even Qhorin Halfhand and Mance Rayder — the people he has cared for most at Castle Black.

I can see why the show has fixated on Olly’s story arc to do some plot/character development work at the same time.

In any case, Jon walks again, Dolorous Edd manages to laugh at a joke, and then we’re in a ship at sea with Sam and Gilly.

Cheryl
With Gilly’s delighted face in the window.

Rosalyn
Gilly seemed so very bright and alive in this scene.

Cheryl
Gilly seemed different to me — so much so that I wondered if it was a different actress at first.

She has gained some kind of gravity, seriousness — a sense that her book learning has affected her at a core level.

Rosalyn
The ship seemed relatively safe — from other humans, if not from the elements. Gilly has never been in a safe place in her entire life.

Laura
Again I feel like the show went out of its way to make Sam laughable. In between the ridiculous vomiting, he was actually being quite clever and caring and tough. He doesn’t want to separate himself from Gilly, no less than she wants it.

Rosalyn
Of course they would make him seasick.

Laura
Gilly is both serious and confident—that’s what struck me.

Rosalyn
I guess they’re shoehorning him into the role of comic relief, but I can’t quite see why. It doesn’t seem deserved in terms of the character, and it’s really not doing much for the plot, either.

Cheryl
His mind is strong, his body weak, and we know — because he told us — that he wants to help Jon, so I would guess they will reconnect soon enough.

Rosalyn
Sam’s quest to become a maester is just another front on the coming war — a different front than armies or battles — just like Bran’s.

Laura
Though, finally I get my old Varys back!

Rosalyn
Yeah, that was revealing. I don’t know if we’ve seen Varys at work, at least since Season 1, in very different circumstances.

Cheryl
A scene in which Varys is center stage, plying his trade.

Laura
I don’t think we’ve ever seen Varys actually ply his trade in real time, like this. It was a thing to witness.

We’ve seen him talk about his little birds with his peers, like Olenna, but never “flip” someone like Vala.

Rosalyn
It seems true to character that Varys wouldn’t hurt kids. I believe him.

Can we talk about that Tower of Joy flashback? Young Ned Stark! Howland Reed! The Sword of the Morning!

Laura
Was this super difficult to follow for you, Cheryl?

Cheryl
Yes, it was a bit. It’s interesting that Meera’s dad was there — and now we know why she has to hang around.

One thing I wondered about is why Ned Stark in his younger self did not look more like the Ned Stark we know. It’s a different actor, of course, but his voice was quite different, his hair color different.

Rosalyn
I thought they did a fair job with casting. Although that’s a good point on the timbre of his voice (the accent seemed well enough, though).

Cheryl
The accent was right, but the Northern men have dark hair in this show, and he had much lighter hair it seemed to me — more like the Lannisters. Not sure if it matters.

[Editor’s note: What was I thinking? This is Game of Thrones! Wars have been fought over hair color! Of course it matters.]

Rosalyn
And, the big “reveal” in this scene: that Ned Stark didn’t defeat Arthur Dayne in fair, honorable combat — that’s off-book now.

Cheryl
Another back-stabbing — like Jaime’s.

Laura
Perhaps that’s why this episode is named Oathbreaker. cracks knuckles

I did a bit of digging to see if that term had been used anywhere formally, in the books. Brienne named Jaime’s sword Oathkeeper, that we know. But Jon called himself an oathbreaker, at least in the books, in the very start when he was having sexytimes with Ygritte. But Jaime is the main one. He was a Kingsguard with the same men we saw in Bran’s flashback, but he’d just stabbed the king they swore to protect.

For once, Ned Stark had to accept something not-quite-noble but necessary. He was never good at it after this. The Reeds, however, seem to get it.

Rosalyn
That must be why there’s such loyalty between the two Houses.

Cheryl
Rosalyn, that loyalty is unknown in the show, as far as I can remember.

Laura
The loyalty is mentioned briefly when Jojen and Meera first join up with Bran and Rickon, et al.

Rosalyn
I wasn’t expecting Bran’s voice to penetrate through time and the cosmos and reach young Ned Stark.

Laura
Since we didn’t get a look into the Tower, we’re definitely thinking A) whatever is in there is important, and B) if the show bothered to reveal this part of the backstory, it must have something important in it, too.

Cheryl
The three-eyed raven will be a useful narrative device to fill us in on lots of backstory. This can speed up the process, as we have only two seasons to go (right?). There is a lot of backstory to get to.

Laura
So far the exposition-by-vision hasn’t been too clunky. They’re using Bran’s flashbacks liberally but well.

Rosalyn
I think the three-eyed raven scene here was really one of the best yet. That has been an unavoidably slow plot point for ages and ages. This interaction (post-flashback) between Bran and “the old guy in the tree” had some emotional heft, for once, and some drama. We have a reason to invest in Bran’s quest again: he won’t be there forever. He’s being prepared. He needs Meera’s help. I think it’s parallel to Sam’s quest. These are other arts that will matter in the ultimate battle.

Plus, we care about the Starks, still — I do anyway — and seeing Bran witness this key point in his family’s history feels like it matters to us on a basic character level. Well done.

Cheryl
Good point: it’s not only the men of action on the battlefield that matter. The final battle will involve solid book-learning, diplomacy, spies, and the mysterious special sauce that holds it all together — faith?

Rosalyn
Yes, the x-factor, faith! The question of loyalty and honor surfaces again, this scene of kings and Kingsguard and kingslayers and usurpers — the overarching theme of the book, revisited but in the past.

Laura
Let’s get to Arya — that’s the other key bit of learning, with the Faceless Men: some kind of ancient death cult that doesn’t yet seem to have an important purpose, apart from Arya character development. But I’d bet it comes back to the plot.

And she’s going to become a maester of it, or the equivalent anyway.

Rosalyn
I think this was a very effective and efficient Faceless Man training sequence. It managed to pick up the pace by diving into Arya’s history and motivations and the process of letting go at the same time as showing the nuts and bolts of her training and progress. Moving action along and evolving her character at the same time.

Cheryl
Again I wondered, as we did last week, why the heck is she clinging to this cult?

Rosalyn
She’s stubborn. She wants to win what she sets out to do.

And she took the Hound off her list. She does and does not want to kill him. And she was honest about it.

Cheryl
Reminding us that revenge is the worst motive …

Is she breaking her oath by renouncing her list?

Laura
She used to have way more names on it, right?

Rosalyn
Right before Arya’s vision was restored, Jaqen offered her water as she was kneeling in the main room, and it appeared to be in front of a Heart Tree. Remember that their temple also has idols and gods of various lands. Just like Vaes Dothrak.

I wasn’t sure how a girl letting go of her entire identity was still visiting the Gods of the North, though.

Cheryl
Another call back to the northern lands and roots of the Starks — all the remaining Starks are being pulled back there somehow.

Laura
And obviously this old religion of the heart trees is important. As Bran has shown, this shit works.

Rosalyn
This episode spent a lot of time on cloistered orders. The House of Black and White. The Dosh Khaleen. The sparrows in the sept. The maesters, even if we didn’t get to Oldtown with Sam. Maybe even the watch. The idea of knighthood itself …

Laura
And all of those orders demand oaths.

Cheryl
I ask you as book readers: what are the Faceless Men really doing? What’s their ultimate goal? Do we know at all?

Rosalyn
I don’t really think they do! It’s made slightly more clear that their god/worship is basically only for death. Their service is holy.

Laura
We got some examples of people who sought out the Faceless Men for merciful death.

Rosalyn
Also, Jaqen kills for Arya on request originally because she saved his life, which seems at odds with all this teaching that the Many-Faced God is not just “death.”

Cheryl
The Faceless Men as I see them from only from watching the show are about release of the corporal body for those who come to drink the water — and are “resurrected” as others.

Laura
Good point about resurrection — at worst, they’re donating their bodies to science/religion. To me, while reading, Arya’s storyline was way more boring than Bran’s: repetitive and depressing and cloistered.

Rosalyn
What did you think of Bernie Sparrow’s scene with Tommen?

For me, that scene was terrifying. It showed how manipulative the Sparrow can be!

Cheryl
We had a new, improved Tommen here — one with resolve and certitude and actual authority. Or started that way, anyway.

Laura
Poor Tommen, who always wears that dopey crown: a symbol of how much of his kingly role is still figuratively “put on.” It slipped away so quickly when confronted with the wily yet calm logic of the Sparrow.

Rosalyn
The High Sparrow is selling theology much more effectively than GRRM manages to. I actually thought the writing and acting here made much more use out of some ideas in the book than GRRM does himself.

Cheryl
By the end they were side by side, with poor Tommen smiling in agreement. The Sparrow knew all he had to do was tie his ideas to a mother’s love — the strongest force in Tommen’s life. Masterful.

Rosalyn
With this idea of Cersei’s love for him being the love of The Mother, I think they’re setting us up for a showdown. By revisiting the quote about the Faith and the Crown being “twin pillars of the world” — equal and opposing powers — he’s making that clear. The crown is not on top. It’s kind of a threat.

Cheryl
Do you think they are “opposing” powers? I thought he was saying they were twin powers, both necessary for order.

Laura
The crown can’t overrule the gods — gods can overrule the crown, though.

Rosalyn
I think previously it had been pretty clear that it was a half secular society. People were faithful in name, but the monarchy ruled. The sparrows are a direct response to that. So I took it as a sort of subtle threat. By asserting equality. That’s different than it used to be in King’s Landing.

Cheryl
This is the thing about Jonathan’s Pryce portrayal of the High Sparrow: he is speaking without rancor, anger, or force — always with gentleness in a low tone. So it all feels so “reasonable.” (This is very different from the crone Unella, who has berated Cersei and Margaery). So nothing he says sounds dangerous.
Rosalyn
The faith is actual bullshit but he manages to make it sound true and good.

Cheryl
Like Tommen, I wondered, why does his mother have to suffer any more? Why are they making only her and Margaery do the walk of shame? This is not real atonement—I mean we all have sinned, as they freely admit.

Laura
Why not Tommen? Is he really all that innocent? And really, why not Jaime? As Jaime himself pointed out earlier.

Rosalyn
The faith is BS. Although (and this has not been shown well by the show), in the book the Faith Militant rise to power because they are the only force out there giving a shit about common people ravaged by war. It’s another side to the Faith Militant.

Cheryl
It is so odd that they are zeroing in on these people for these crimes, so puritanical.

Laura
And frankly misogynist—if they suspect that Cersei and Jaime are having an incestuous affair, why is it Cersei’s fault alone?

Rosalyn
Absolutely. And why do the septas look like normal nuns? And the sparrows just look like ye old ascetic holy men?

Cheryl
They made no move to go after Jaime in the last episode, when he was there and surrounded.

Laura
Not to skip ahead, but next week’s episode is called “Book of the Stranger, ”another of the Seven gods the Faith Militant are all gung-ho about, and the scariest one. Rarely spoken of and sort of the devil figure. If not the devil, then an Old Testament, vengeful god.

Rosalyn
In Dothrak with Dany, I remain interested in what the Dosh Khaleen are really all about. I was pleasantly surprised that the women didn’t seem exactly vengeful. I had felt the show was setting us up for a bunch of bitter old ladies, which has misogynist overtones, to me.

Laura
I still kind of hope the Dosh Khaleen are a bit conflicted about Dany, not wholly negative. She certainly seems a twit right now, so I don’t want them to flock to her side. That would smack too much of the blond savior routine we’ve seen repeatedly. However, I don’t believe all these women will just go ahead and let “one of their own” be beheaded for not showing up right away. These are a roomful of women who know the silliness of men’s ambitions and also know oodles of inside information and political history.

The price of admission, for Dany, seems to be to recognize that her khal wasn’t anything that special. Her issue is that she thinks she is special, but until now that hasn’t mattered to the Dothraki (except her original khalasar who saw her burn and live).

Rosalyn
At various points in history, cloistered orders presented a kind of freedom for women in a world of limited opportunities. They don’t have to worry about childbearing/rearing, husbands, or work; they can get down to other pursuits. I’m still wondering if the show might surprise me by treating the subject with any depth.

Cheryl
That’s right Rosalyn! They set the rules there. Maybe these really are the brains behind the Dothraki.

Rosalyn
Cloistering hasn’t always been all “get thee to a nunnery” insulting and punishment. Sometimes women were like, fuck you, I’mma go compose music, philosophize, write poetry, and have visions.

Cheryl
They might even have male suitors — they may be much more than withered sexless hags.

Rosalyn
On to Winterfell? I was so upset to see Osha and Rickon and Shaggydog the direwolf)appear. It gets to me when the direwolves are hurt.

As a reader, I absolutely did not see that coming until the scene was well under way.

Laura
Shaggydog’s head was the goriest part of the episode, for me.

Cheryl
More Starks for Ramsay to torture … but will the old people of Winterfell allow it?

Rosalyn
I feel so bad about them being trapped by Ramsay of all people that I just can’t bear it. I am secretly hoping the Umbers are plotting a sneaky takeover and they’re in league with Osha and Rickon, and it’s just a ruse to get in the door and murder Ramsay. The North is so fractured. Old loyalties are uprooted.

Laura
I was hoping the same. A ruse to get a real Stark into Winterfell? Ramsay seems way over his head, by the way. He didn’t even think to ask people to look for Rickon, and now that he has him, it didn’t look like he knew what to do next. He’s missing his daddy, I’d bet.

Cheryl
But Ramsay’s playing it very confident..

Remember, Sansa is heading to Castle Black, just where the Bolton gang are planning to go.

Laura
The Sansa and Jon and Bolton dramatic irony is making me sweat. We know where they’re each going, and what they want, and what they know and don’t know — it’s almost Greek.

Rosalyn
Also, there was the somewhat sly (on the part of the writers) move at having Umber talk about how Jon would be able to rally the Wildlings and is a force to be reckoned with. Which we’ve seen is true! Doubly true now that he’s back from the dead. And Sansa is headed his way!

Cheryl
A reminder that not everyone is along with Jon’s program, and Jon will have some selling to do.

Rosalyn
And Rickon is a prisoner! Everything set up to want to cheer for Jon to go storming in! Or at least stay at Castle Black long enough to greet Sansa again!

Cheryl
I could not help but wonder if Osha will be a super match for Ramsay, as she knows how to lie and misdirect as well as him.

Laura
Notably, Osha escaped Winterfell once by seducing Theon.

On to Tyrion’s awkward scene.

Rosalyn
I felt that could have been cut.

Laura
Clunky writing, and I’m not sure it added anything to any of those three characters.

Cheryl
There must have been a purpose … but … what?

Rosalyn
Generously, the only thing I can make of it is that they want to contrast Missandei’s polite unflappableness with her fierceness when it became clear the slavers were back in control in the other Free Cities. But it didn’t do anything for Tyrion and wasn’t effective if intended as comic relief.

Laura
Tyrion could banter with the dolorous lot at the Wall; he could find a way to bond with Missandei and Grey Worm. Not believable to me, in other words. A generous reading is that it was meant to again highlight the importance of Tyrion’s class difference — if anything, he would have been a slaver, not a slave.

Rosalyn
Previous seasons had some genuine-seeming moments between Missandei and Grey Worm, but they appear to have totally given up on establishing any kind of connection at this point.

Laura
I think that was meant to be apparent in their knowing looks while Tyrion was being awkward.

Cheryl
What was going on with the Free Cities was confusing, and what Missandei was saying was unclear. “They speak only one language.” Which language is that?

Rosalyn
I also thought it was fairly confusing about the other Free Cities and what Varys was reporting and what Missandei wanted them to do about it. Even as a book reader.

Laura
I was also confused. I thought “the one language” was maybe threats of violence. Or economic threats. Unclear.

Rosalyn
This is what I thought too — violence/power is the only thing that matters, and she wants to answer in kind. This is the only real character significance in the scene. She’s never shown this side before.

Otherwise perhaps the point of the scene was revealing (anti-climactically) that there wasn’t a populist uprising in Meereen, it was controlled by the slavers in other city-states.

Cheryl
In other words, an astroturf tea party operation.

Rosalyn
It was actually a little strained that they brought Vala’s character back. Her appearance on screen was super minor.

Laura
So, to end on Castle Black: the hanging, and Jon’s passing of the torch—er, cape.

Cheryl
Maybe a jumping off point: As I have been relentlessly noting, the themes of sin, confession, repentance, redemption — and resurrection — have been at play among almost all the plot lines at this point. Here, the guilty refuse to confess, ask for forgiveness, or even apologize. Thorne obviously thought he was keeping his oath to the Night’s Watch. Olly stubbornly says nothing. And then they die. What a waste.

Rosalyn
Thorne was actually impressively poised and even managed some gravitas, while getting in a last jab at undead Jon Snow.

Laura
I’d honestly forgotten what Early Seasons Thorne was like — that he was the relentless trainer who was so cruel to Sam and nasty to “Lord Snow.”

Cheryl
Jon’s died, so I took it that his oath is no longer valid. Is he an oathbreaker?

Laura
So, interestingly Jon is not an oathbreaker because he died. And that’s in the Night’s Watch oath: until death.

Rosalyn
But then he has his mic-drop moment. “My watch is ended.” We know this moment is what the narrative arc requires. We want Jon Snow freed of his vows and back in the world. So in a way I was cheering. But it feels like he is throwing away his newfound power or the idea of him at the head of an army.

Laura
As we asked last week why is he needed there?

Rosalyn
It must have something to do with his dialogue at the open. “I did what I thought was right, and I got murdered for it.” It seems that he is not quite disillusioned, but now his eyes have been opened.

Laura
Isn’t that what Thorne basically said too?

Cheryl
I suspect that Davos will be going with him, wherever that might be. And Tormund.

In a way, we can see Thorne’s actions as revenge for his comeuppance by the former Lord Commander, who promoted Jon Snow. Thorne acted on his own personal desire for revenge and prettied it up by acting as if it was for the good of the group and for loyalty. But his ego took over.

And that is what Arya is learning now, the necessity of abnegation of the ego to effect real, powerful change—otherwise your own shit just gets in the way. She is overcoming the desire for revenge.

Rosalyn
That’s a good point, Cheryl. That’s one of the most challenging character evolutions offered by the story. We root for Arya. We want her to kill everyone on that list. But that’s not actually a noble purpose. Her character grows more by learning that.

Cheryl
Good points about both Thorne and Jon being murdered for doing what they thought was right.

So that hanging scene was really graphic, I thought: the bodies convulsing immediately after the rope is cut, the ghoulish grey faces of death. The shots lingered, they were making a point, but why? Why? Why?

Rosalyn
They really did make us look at the dead.

Laura
Especially Olly. I simply cannot deal with all the dead children this season.

Rosalyn
That’s what made me think that maybe Jon had just had it and just believed a) he couldn’t be effective any more (“I don’t know how to do that,” he said when Davos asked him to lead) and/or b) it wasn’t worth the cost. It’s a progression for viewers and readers, too, getting beyond the desire to have Arya take revenge. I hadn’t really been carried along toward that resolution before, but I note it now.

Cheryl
This episode seemed chewy, with lots moving the plot forward. I really feel they are moving things faster now because they are freed of the books and know time is running out.

Laura
Yes, a solid early season episode, with lots of potential storylines — yet it didn’t suffer from the dragging chessboard setup we sometimes complain of at this point.

Squawks

Laura
Where be Bronn? And Gendry? I assume he’s gone for good, but we’ll see.

Rosalyn
About the parallels between Jon and Dany passing through trial and coming to power: whatever happened to that magic in Dothraki that birthed the dragons, when the witch was sacrificed: “Only life can pay for life.” Maybe Jon being an agent of “the light” could have been foretold that way. Originally I’d pictured Jon being resurrected out of flame somehow, in a similar move. Or did Shireen’s sacrifice somehow pay for his resurrection? At least that would give some meaning to that grisly move on the part of the showrunners.

Cheryl
When Tommen went to see the High Sparrow, he was exuding authority and confidence. At one point, he motioned to his guard with a flick of his hand. This reminded me of Cersei’s lesson to Ned in Season 1 on what power is (to her): she ordered her perform a series of maneuvers about her as Ned watched. Seems like Tommen had been taking some lessons from his mom. All that authority crumbled by scene’s end, of course!

Please join the conversation in comments! But no spoilers, please!