Game of Thrones Chat S5E1: The Sun Sets in the Westeros

Westeros: Land of Enchantment.

Yes, wars loom as a years-long winter descends. And OK, witches named Maggy the Frog predict as-yet-unborn childrens’ deaths, and people get burned and flayed alive, and dragons casually incinerate innocents. But, in chaos lies opportunity!

Emerge freely from your excrement-filled crate and enjoy a discussion of “The Wars to Come” with three fans with different perspectives: Laura Fletcher, a casual fan of the television and book series; Corrin Bennett-Kill, a hardcore fan of the book and TV series (she has read all the books four times!); and Cheryl Collins, a TV watcher who does not read.

Please join the discussion in comments!

Cheryl Collins
We’ve been through several season openers together — and this one seemed to get the job done effectively.

It opened on what seemed like a very dark fairy tale that would have an unhappy ending. As the first scene of the season, how do you think it figures into what we’ll see for the rest of the season?

Laura Fletcher
I liked the uncertainty of it. That theme seemed to continue — uncertainty as to where the world is headed.

Corrin Bennett-Kill
There is indeed an open-endedness at this point in the story.

The big villains (Joffrey, Tywin) are dead and the heroes (such as they are) are all in some sort of flux. There doesn’t seem to be a clear direction, as Laura suggested.

Laura
Flux is right — even fan-favorite Tyrion has tipped the scales of antihero, leaning much more anti nowadays. (RIP Shae.).

Corrin
I think we are in for a lot of deep character development rather than epic battles and sweeping chess games. The only real, adult king of the five remaining is Stannis, and he’s stuck way the hell up at the Wall.

And given that many of the main characters that are left are female, I am surprisingly psyched to see what changes occur with Cersei, Sansa, Arya, Dany — even Melisandre as the power behind Stannis’s throne and Brienne as the wandering knight.

Cheryl
So let’s start with Cersei. Cersei seems to be leaning on the wine as she’s trying to make sense of a world in which her father can no longer back her up, and Margaery is moving in for the kill, so to speak.

Meanwhile, an almost unrecognizable Lancel — he who was once so pale and feathery — seems to have been at some kind of religious re-education boot camp, because he is way buff and trying to atone for his sins. Which include being complicit in Robert’s death. It doesn’t look good for Cersei.

Laura
Tywin’s death is a mixed blessing for Cersei. She knew she’d have to contend with him and with Margaery to keep Tommen close, and now there’s only one of those two obstacles left — but it’s a hard one to deal with alone, even as a Lannister.

Corrin
Cersei has spent much of her life defining herself in relation to the men in her life. Defying her father. Hating one brother and lover to the other. Even her conflict with her husband and support of her sons as the king(s). Now, many of them are gone and she is left, kind of meandering. Not really sure who or what to be now that the decisions are hers alone.

Laura
More flux!

Corrin
It will be interesting to see how closely the show decides to stick with Cersei’s story line moving forward.

Laura
I’m excited about how this season will really start to diverge from the books — all three of us will be on more of a level playing field as far as following and predicting the plot.

Corrin
That’s perhaps the other reason why this season already feels so up in the air. We book readers don’t have much to go on moving forward.

We also have another big divergence up at the Wall.

Cheryl
Where that dark-haired woman of mystery, Melisandre, seems to have now set her eyes on Jon Snow.

Corrin
I thought the scenes between Jon, Stannis, and Mance Rayder were some of the strongest in the episode.

Cheryl
It was three approaches to leadership, it seemed to me. And submission.

Laura
What a great way for Mance to go out — though I’m not sure if his death will help his people much in the end. Stannis and Melisandre seem hell-bent on a wildling army.

Cheryl
Jon Snow’s decision to loose an arrow to give Mance a quick death does not bode well for Stannis.

Corrin
In the books there is this entire story line that has Mance “burning,” but not really. In other words, it leaves it open for Rayder to return in the future. However, in the show, Mance Rayder is most definitively dead. Maybe Melisandre could have disguised his death by fire by some magicking, but an arrow to the heart pretty much nails the coffin.

Cheryl
Does Stannis have the respect of his men? I doubt it. Mance obviously did, as does Jon.

Corrin
I think Stannis does, but in a different way. Mance and Jon can inspire love as well as respect. Stannis, not so much. He’s too bloody rigid. Which is something he and Mance have in common.

Jon used to be that way, but life has shown him how much grey there is in life. It’s made him a better man and leader, I think.

Cheryl
That’s what happens when you see the other side as Jon has — life is so much more grey.

It seems to me Kit Harrington is a better actor as Snow than he was even a few seasons ago. Perhaps both Snow and Harrington are more comfortable in their skins.

Laura
I was also impressed by Jon trying to save Mance — he values the man over the politics. It was naive, perhaps, but also reflects Job’s character (as well as his youth).

Cheryl
Laura, to your point, it seemed to me that Jon was trying to say to Mance: we need all the men and leaders we can get now. Don’t throw your life away.

And how creepy that smile was on Stannis’s wife as she watched Mance burn. Nut. Cake.

Laura
The way that shot was framed, to show Shireen closing her eyes while mama grinned … eerie.

And frankly, I don’t think Mance’s death will save his people from being drafted. So maybe Jon knows more than I’m used to giving him credit for.

Corrin
Jon, although he is a bastard by birth, was brought up in the seat of a great house. He knows more of practical politics than Mance ever did. And he knows the Baratheons.

Although we saw the “flayed man” flying above Winterfell in the opening sequence, I was kind of glad we didn’t get any Theon/Reek yet. But we did get a peek at Sansa and Littlefinger, and poor helpless Robert Arryn.

Cheryl
Another person who is holding rigidly on to a system that no longer works in the face of chaos is Brienne.

Corrin
Yep. Brienne is flailing about just as much as Robin was.

Cheryl
Brienne is holding on to the notion of what formally makes a knight, telling Podrick she is no such thing … although she clearly is a knight, and like it or not, Podrick is her squire.

Corrin
She has no purpose. Not truly. Especially if she decides not to go after Sansa. I wonder what you ladies thought about her intent sword sharpening. It seemed a bit too pointed to be just scenery.

I’m not sure, but it seemed almost to symbolize how she is being steadily pared down to her essentials.

Laura
Brienne’s boss-fight with the Hound at the end of last season seemed to mark a change in her. She bit off his ear! She’s getting frustrated and possibly loosening her morals a bit. Getting more grey.

Cheryl
I see what you mean. There was nothing beautiful about that fight — nothing noble. It really dragged her down into the muck.

To the next chick on our list: Sansa.

Laura
Like Arya, I think Sansa is past wanting to be rescued. She can’t trust anyone, and she’s become much more clever and self-reliant. Her composure is so different now. I hope all the Sansa haters are eating their hats after this episode.

Cheryl
Cagey, cagey — pretending not to care about that tiny scroll Littlefinger received. Just allowing, not fighting or questioning … saving her strength, looking for her moment.

Corrin
Sansa has found some steel in her spine. She reminds me a lot of Melisandre now.

Sansa has her mother’s strength of will but not her fragility. And she has her father’s smarts but not the weakness of his honorability. Sansa instead shows brains, self-control, and a coolness under pressure neither of her parents had. Like Lady M. A surety in herself.

And pretty formidable.

Laura
And also Sansa has overcome her desperation. She has a new will to live — even late last season, she was refusing to eat (after her marriage to Tyrion), and I think this Sansa wouldn’t mope like that anymore.

Cheryl
What about Dany? And the drama with the dragons? I’ll be interested to see how hers merges with Tyrion’s story.

Laura
Assuming he doesn’t drink himself to death en route, as he threatened.

Corrin
She is still wrangling with the difference between ruling and conquering.

Laura
And she’s also wrangling with which advisor’s advice to heed. Now Daario is weighing in on policy. He has a good point about the fighting pits, but will giving an inch make the slave masters take a mile?

Corrin
And she has unfortunately sent away one of the few around her who was helping her rule: Jorah Mormont. Which makes Tyrion’s possible arrival even more exciting, because those two together would be formidable as well.

Cheryl
A Tyrion/Dany duo would be formidable. I never saw that coming, not for a moment.

Laura
I would think Tyrion would have excellent ideas for how to mollify Meereen — if he makes it in time. Clearly the whole of Slavers Bay is a powder keg.

Cheryl
And I think Daario is right about the dragons (wow, do I feel stupid typing a sentence like that) — her power is the dragons, and she just has to face and embrace it, somehow.

But they cannot be controlled.

Corrin
Well, in theory they can. I have no idea how the show will make that happen. The means to control the dragons that the book has suggested have been nearly eliminated from the show. Even in the books the dragons are still uncontrollable.

Laura
If the two smaller dragons are pissed off and terrifying, that doesn’t bode well for Mister Missing Giant Dragon, Drogon.

Cheryl
What a tense scene that was of her descending into the catacombs.

Corrin
I felt like that descent was mirroring her descent into her own heart. There was uncertainty, fear, even in the pitch of her voice when she called the dragons’ names. She sounded like a young girl.

She doesn’t know how to be the person she is being called to be and is running away from herself at the same time that she’s running from her dragons.

Cheryl
Yes, like a mirror of Cersei at the beginning … in a dark place with danger afoot.

Laura
Although Cersei is always thinking of the future, thanks to her paranoid encounter with the witch (we now know), and Dany is pretty mired in dealing with the day-to-day, unsure of when or how she’ll ever get to be capital-q Queen.

Corrin
And Tyrion. Poor broken Tyrion.

Cheryl
We are back to the old debauched Tyrion — who can blame him for his descent, after killing his lover and father and being hauled around in a crate — but I admit to being quite surprised that he and Varys are headed off to Meereen! I didn’t see that coming.

At least we have not seen his ass. Game of Asses is back! I lost count of the number of male backsides we viewed. Yawn.

Laura
Bearded Tyrion was a clever way of showing the passage of time, and I loved the crated point-of-view montage. This episode was very well shot!

Also, that scene made me remember that Varys and Jorah Mormont were once in contact. I wonder if they still are? (I miss Jorah, as you can tell.)

I’m a Dinklage fangirl, so you know I was scoping the beard action.

Cheryl
Metrosexual Tyrion!

Good point about Jonah, Laura — I wondered if he was in the background, hoping to work with Varys and get back in with Dany.

All in all, I think this worked well as a season opener — the pieces are in place, the mood is set, and now we’ll see how characters change, as Corrin notes. You certainly feel that chaos is nigh, and how people respond to that will be interesting — and show who are the real leaders.

Laura
And who are the real villains and menaces. Obviously we have the dragons and slave masters in the East, and in the West we have … mainly White Walkers, at this point. And loopy Cersei. And the Boltons. Bleargh.

Cheryl
I kind of feel that disintegration is the enemy — anarchy. The void at the top will create lots of opportunists.

Corrin
The opener was slow moving, but cohesive. It didn’t feel all disjointed like some premieres have been.

Laura
I think this will essentially be a two-episode season opener (which we’ve seen before, with this many storylines), so we’ll have more of a lay of the land next week.

Squawks:

Corrin
* Oh! What about the introduction of Dorne via a birthmark? Cersei’s daughter has been in Dorne this whole time so we will get to meet Myrcella again, and see the ramifications of the Viper’s death. Yet another mark against the Lannisters for Dorne.

• OH MY GOD! The creepy painted stones on eyes! Stop showing it! Also, now my husband wants that when he dies.

Laura
* In that scene where Jaime and Cersei talk over a dead family member again … at least they stuck to only chatting this time.

• The scenes between Grey Worm and Missandei continue to sizzle, even when poignantly sad.

Cheryl

• Did anyone else think that Melisandre had some work done at the plastic surgeon up at the Wall?
• It’s obvious but bears repeating: in the flashback, teen mean-girl Cercei makes a point of saying “don’t worry about my father.” She’s been raised in a universe where he always had her back, no matter how much she resented him. But no more! She aspired to be feared, not loved, by the people of King’s Landing, but she may be reconsidering that strategy …
• Two seasons ago we also had a season opening scene in a brothel. Sellsword Bron was just about to get down to business when duty called him away – to a long conversation with Tyrion. It seemed like a sly way of saying: “We lured you in with soft porn, and now we’ll hit you about the head with talky exposition.” This time, we got lured in with boobies, but got: a murder. It was a shocker, and a good (and gruesome) way in. But no Pixie Le Knot this time.